I feel terribly guilty after winning for the Stormcloaks..

#41zeroboboPosted 11/26/2012 9:19:00 PM
Nicodaemos posted...
From: zerobobo | Posted: 11/26/2012 8:48:58 PM | #034
well you can't really say the guy who becomes the jarl had anything to do with it when its pretty clear the other brother was the mastermind and the only one really aware of it.

unless you can show me evidence he was involved, i dont think he was due to the nature of the quest and how secretive everything was
but if you wanna say he's guilty cus he's related to the guy...well.....uh.....


It's not about whether or not he was personally involved. Him becoming Jarl would give the entire family even more influence and power than they already have. Thonar's little side-operations would certainly benefit, and probably expand.


so you're more concerned about a guy who's completely remorseful of his greedy actions he says so if you kill maddonach, since it gets his wife killed... maybe MAYBE getting indirect support from his brother the new jarl for more land schemes.

instead of the actual crime boss who has both the dark brotherhood and thieves guild at her call. who's corruption is well known and wide spread and even happily deals with the thalmor if it benefits her?

ok....
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Gamertag: Clonedzero
#42NicodaemosPosted 11/26/2012 9:32:33 PM
From: zerobobo | Posted: 11/26/2012 9:19:00 PM | #041
so you're more concerned about a guy who's completely remorseful of his greedy actions


You're full of **** if you actually believe this. Never mind all the other people that have been killed through his machinations, but once his trophy ****y that never even cared for him beyond his money dies, he'll turn a new leaf! He'll become a new man!

instead of the actual crime boss who has both the dark brotherhood and thieves guild at her call.


First of all, everyone has the Dark Brotherhood at their call, provided they have the money. And the thieves guild pales in comparison to being:

- murdered in broad daylight
- possibly being arrested at any time by the city guard at Thonar's whim
- being used as free labor in Cidhna mine until you collapse and die

So if you think Thonar isn't an "actual crime boss" who's corruption isn't as "well-known and wide spread" you'd be, as I said before, full of ****.
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Until you spread your wings, you'll never know how far you can walk.
GT-- The Baconer
#43zeroboboPosted 11/26/2012 9:46:17 PM
Nicodaemos posted...
From: zerobobo | Posted: 11/26/2012 9:19:00 PM | #041
so you're more concerned about a guy who's completely remorseful of his greedy actions


You're full of **** if you actually believe this. Never mind all the other people that have been killed through his machinations, but once his trophy ****y that never even cared for him beyond his money dies, he'll turn a new leaf! He'll become a new man!

instead of the actual crime boss who has both the dark brotherhood and thieves guild at her call.


First of all, everyone has the Dark Brotherhood at their call, provided they have the money. And the thieves guild pales in comparison to being:

- murdered in broad daylight
- possibly being arrested at any time by the city guard at Thonar's whim
- being used as free labor in Cidhna mine until you collapse and die

So if you think Thonar isn't an "actual crime boss" who's corruption isn't as "well-known and wide spread" you'd be, as I said before, full of ****.


yeah, the guy totally arranged for me to have a full pardon, give me his family's ring, and stop his connections with the foresworn when im the guy who kinda toppled his scheme isn't remorseful at all....
by his own admission he didnt realize things got so out of control.

are you saying people aren't capable of realizing their mistakes and changing? he says he's going to. he admits he was wrong and tries to make up for it by getting you pardoned.

whats the point of even discussing anythign with you if you ignore the NPC's reactions and dialogue.
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Gamertag: Clonedzero
#44NicodaemosPosted 11/26/2012 9:57:39 PM
From: zerobobo | Posted: 11/26/2012 9:46:17 PM | #043
yeah, the guy totally arranged for me to have a full pardon, give me his family's ring, and stop his connections with the foresworn when im the guy who kinda toppled his scheme isn't remorseful at all....


Yeah what a great guy. After you conveniently solved his problem for him, he has the Jarl pardon you for the crime that he personally had you framed and arrested for.

And then he departs wondering aloud how he's going to round up some more slave labor for his now-empty mine.

by his own admission he didnt realize things got so out of control.


"Dammit! They were only supposed to kill the people I wanted them to kill! I wasn't supposed to be affected personally!"

Lol. You are just dense.
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Until you spread your wings, you'll never know how far you can walk.
GT-- The Baconer
#45The_Beer_ScotchPosted 11/26/2012 10:25:28 PM
Grenpa posted...
I sided with the Empire, the empire doesn't want the Thalmor doing what they're doing, but the Thalmor DESTROYED them, they basically said "If you don't surrender to us, we'll completely wipe out what's left of your Empire". The Empire had to choice but to agree to the Thalmors terms, or be completely destroyed. To me, it seems like the Empire agreed just to save itself, and gain strength to fight the Thalmor. Ulfrics just a scumbag who wants power, and uses what's happening in order to achieve what he wants. It seemed to me if you sided with him you were delivering power to him.
tl;dr: The Empires just trying to buy time and Ulfrics a power hungry racist.


Hypothetical situation... you are canadian. America owns your country. America also owns argentina and brazil.

Russia invades america wins, and strikes a peace deal with america.

Terms of the deal are america abandons brazil and argentina to the russians. And allows death squads to rome canada killing all... hmm... ice hockey fans? America agrees to save its own skin

Canada fights back against america, yet they are the "evil ones who are just powerhungry".

Yet america is fully justified in flinging three countries to the wolves to save their own skin.

Sounds silly right?

Just becaus a douchebag politicion takes advantage of a situation, does not completely invalidate the cause . If there was no base cause, there would be no situation to take advantage off.
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The road goes ever on and on....
Time to replay ff9 and Grandia... whee
#46Storm_WalkerPosted 11/26/2012 10:57:46 PM
Grenpa posted...
I sided with the Empire, the empire doesn't want the Thalmor doing what they're doing, but the Thalmor DESTROYED them, they basically said "If you don't surrender to us, we'll completely wipe out what's left of your Empire". The Empire had to choice but to agree to the Thalmors terms, or be completely destroyed. To me, it seems like the Empire agreed just to save itself, and gain strength to fight the Thalmor. Ulfrics just a scumbag who wants power, and uses what's happening in order to achieve what he wants. It seemed to me if you sided with him you were delivering power to him.
tl;dr: The Empires just trying to buy time and Ulfrics a power hungry racist.


This, right here. Also, the Thalmor didn't come as far as they have through brute strength, they took over Summerset Isle, Valenwood, and Elsweyr through much sneakier means. Part of the mainquest uncovers evidence that the Thalmor had a hand in the civil war happening, and they want it to go on as long as possible. Of course the Blades, who were tied to the Order of Talos, were a major thorn in their sides from the beginning. So the White-Gold Concordat disbands them, and then to make sure that they can track down any hiding Blades, the ban on the worship of Talos is also part of it. That plus the Thalmor never believed in him anyway, and doing that would demoralize a lot of people, even to the point of starting a civil war in Skyrim.

One thing the Thalmor never counted on was the Dragonborn getting involved, someone with the power to end the war quickly with as few casualties as possible. Then there's Ulfric himself; I get the feeling from him that he fancies himself the next Talos, just because he can use the Thu'um. For all of these reasons, and also because I've done each side at least once, I always side with the Empire now. Sure it's corrupt, but that can be fixed later. And I'm pretty sure that, as Dragonborn, even if I had sided with the Stormcloaks, I'd have to put that heretic Ulfric in his place at some point anyway.
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"I'm feelin' peachy keen, so f%@& you, and thanks for asking ^/.^"
#47Sab_LiathPosted 11/26/2012 10:59:27 PM
Hindsight is 20/20... at the time the Cordicant was signed, the Empire was essentially in a war of attrition. While they might have just taken a major stronghold from the Thalmor, the Thalmor didn't want them to know that. They bluffed at the Empire, acting like they were in a stronger position than they really were. The Empire fell for the bluff, and signed the Cordicant.

However it should also be mentioned that while the Cordicant banned worship of Talos, this ban wasn't truly enforced until Ulfric Stormcloak started his rebellion. The citizens of the empire would still worship Talos, and the Imperial government would look the other way.

As for which side i prefer, if I was forced to choose, I'd go with the Empire. it should also be mentioned that Brunwulf Free-Winter, the Imperal Jarl of Windhelm will work to improve the living conditions of the Grey Quarter, thereby making that portion of the city less of a slum.
#48Storm_WalkerPosted 11/26/2012 11:02:09 PM
x5N1P3Rx_X513 posted...
Bah, who cares? If the Thalmor try coming to my door expecting an Imperial kissass, I'll go to Summerset and kill their entire government off.


Sprints-on-Treetops (my Argonian ranger): "Sounds like fun, when do we leave?"
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"I'm feelin' peachy keen, so f%@& you, and thanks for asking ^/.^"
#49zeroboboPosted 11/26/2012 11:03:05 PM
Nicodaemos posted...
From: zerobobo | Posted: 11/26/2012 9:46:17 PM | #043
yeah, the guy totally arranged for me to have a full pardon, give me his family's ring, and stop his connections with the foresworn when im the guy who kinda toppled his scheme isn't remorseful at all....


Yeah what a great guy. After you conveniently solved his problem for him, he has the Jarl pardon you for the crime that he personally had you framed and arrested for.

And then he departs wondering aloud how he's going to round up some more slave labor for his now-empty mine.

by his own admission he didnt realize things got so out of control.


"Dammit! They were only supposed to kill the people I wanted them to kill! I wasn't supposed to be affected personally!"

Lol. You are just dense.


i never said he was a good guy. im saying he recognizes his huge mistakes and is unlikely to do anything like that again.
he's no where near as bad as maven. he was just naive and thought he could control them when he obviously couldnt.
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Gamertag: Clonedzero
#50The_Beer_ScotchPosted 11/26/2012 11:03:12 PM
Storm_Walker posted...
Grenpa posted...
I sided with the Empire, the empire doesn't want the Thalmor doing what they're doing, but the Thalmor DESTROYED them, they basically said "If you don't surrender to us, we'll completely wipe out what's left of your Empire". The Empire had to choice but to agree to the Thalmors terms, or be completely destroyed. To me, it seems like the Empire agreed just to save itself, and gain strength to fight the Thalmor. Ulfrics just a scumbag who wants power, and uses what's happening in order to achieve what he wants. It seemed to me if you sided with him you were delivering power to him.
tl;dr: The Empires just trying to buy time and Ulfrics a power hungry racist.


This, right here. Also, the Thalmor didn't come as far as they have through brute strength, they took over Summerset Isle, Valenwood, and Elsweyr through much sneakier means. Part of the mainquest uncovers evidence that the Thalmor had a hand in the civil war happening, and they want it to go on as long as possible. Of course the Blades, who were tied to the Order of Talos, were a major thorn in their sides from the beginning. So the White-Gold Concordat disbands them, and then to make sure that they can track down any hiding Blades, the ban on the worship of Talos is also part of it. That plus the Thalmor never believed in him anyway, and doing that would demoralize a lot of people, even to the point of starting a civil war in Skyrim.

One thing the Thalmor never counted on was the Dragonborn getting involved, someone with the power to end the war quickly with as few casualties as possible. Then there's Ulfric himself; I get the feeling from him that he fancies himself the next Talos, just because he can use the Thu'um. For all of these reasons, and also because I've done each side at least once, I always side with the Empire now. Sure it's corrupt, but that can be fixed later. And I'm pretty sure that, as Dragonborn, even if I had sided with the Stormcloaks, I'd have to put that heretic Ulfric in his place at some point anyway.


Again, wrong.

If you do not know the games lore (which is fine, not everybody does...) do not comment on the lore.
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The road goes ever on and on....
Time to replay ff9 and Grandia... whee