The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim

R41NB0W-D45H posted...

KillerSlaw posted...

Elisif has shown nothing to show that she isn't worthy of being High Queen, where as Ulfric did nothing but show he was unworthy of being High King.

Except she has. Y'know, by having no leadership abilities in any capacity.

Yes, it's totally reasonable for somebody that doesn't know jack s*** about ruling a hold, let alone an entire continent, to be in a position of power. But oh no, an ambitious person that's proven to be an effective leader, and is pretty much the very definition of what a High King of Skyrim should be! He hasn't proven himself worthy of being the High King!

old ways be damned.

Oh, nevermind, that explains it. You just don't know what a High King is.

Elisif was married to the King. It's HIGHLY unlikely that she's as inexperienced and naive as you're making her out to be.

Hell look at Cersei for another fictional example of someone like this <__<
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Rebel is pretty much a planet, pulling all sorts of moons and satellites his way, among them good, bad, foolish, trollish, and everything else - SeaArrKing

RebelElite791 posted...

Hell look at Cersei for another fictional example of someone like this <__<

I'm sure that's not the example you wanted to show us how it's right, is it?
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I store dead bodies all up under my house and every night I hear them runnin' they mouths.

RebelElite791 posted...

Love her or hate her, or both at the same time, she's not inexperienced or naive, which was my point.

Don't know how far you are, so GOT spoilers:
When left unattended, she let the kingdom fall to pieces around her. I mean, she allowed herself to be held prisoner by the Faith. Some effective rulership right there.
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I store dead bodies all up under my house and every night I hear them runnin' they mouths.

RebelElite791 posted...

Elisif was married to the King. It's HIGHLY unlikely that she's as inexperienced and naive as you're making her out to be.

Hell look at Cersei for another fictional example of someone like this <__<

I'm not going by likely or unlikely. I'm going by what we're shown in the game, and that's Elisif being largely inept at her chosen profession. Have you sat through her introduction lately? They portray her as a bumbling fool that's only on the throne because she climbed in bed with Dead-King Torygg.

I also have no idea who Cersei is.
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Breakin' rules since the seventeenth century.
I broke Rule 34. There is no porn of me on the internet.

R41NB0W-D45H posted...

Mind showing me some proof that Ulfric's a sleeper agent? Something in-game, if you wouldn't mind. Some actual evidence that he's racist too while you're at it, please.

That aside, the only reason Solitude hasn't fallen apart under her rule is because her advisers do all the work for her. This is proven when first meeting her, when she reallocates an entire detachment to solve a problem, without confirming that there even is a problem in the first place. During a war. The only thing that makes her a better leader than Siddgeir - Another Jarl whose hold hasn't fallen apart - is the fact that she isn't corrupt.

Sure! The Thalmor have a dossier in their Embassy (y'know, when you raid it in the main storyline) on Ulfric that explains how they brainwashed him a couple years before the game takes place. However, it also states that he's not doing EXACTLY what he was told to do, and that the Thalmor are keeping tabs on him in case he goes full rogue, implying they are to assassinate him if something goes wrong. And, secondly, Argonians are not allowed in Windhelm. They have to live and work on the docks, and that's the only connection they're allowed to have with the city. The Grey Quarter of Windhelm is the walled area where the Dunmer are forced to live, and it's in shambles because Ulfric doesn't REALLY care about you if you're not a Nord or essential to his plans of becoming High King.

Not everybody has the passion to become a true Nord, after all.

And, well, true enough. I concede that Elisif isn't the greatest Jarl, but there are Stormcloak Jarls who are just as bad and ineffective as some of the Imperial ones. A mixed bag for a mixed bag, after all. My only real point is that Ulfric is a terrible person to have as a leader.

obishawn posted...

The Empire isn't what it once was under Septim reign, especially under Tiber. Its falling apart. The signing of the White-Gold Concordat was a slap in Tiber's face, a big fat middle finger pointed at the sky. The Empire, as it is in Skyrim, is a Thalmor puppet. To claim that " very existence is a form of Talos worship" is delusional.

So are the Stormcloaks, at least under Ulfric's direct rule. And to say that the Imperial Legion in Skyrim is "merely a Thalmor puppet" is oversimplifying it -- their role is much more complex than that. You and Septim are at least brothers in essence. Remember, the Dragonborn lineage went all the way down the line -- according to Oblivion, at least. Mede is not of Septim blood whatsoever -- making you, effectively, next of kin to the Empire. If not for Brunwulf Free-Winter being so awesome, I would do it for Tiber Septim -- Talos -- to restore his Empire to greatness and have a hope of reuniting the land against the AD.

But yes, I see your point. Then again, it would be ironic to set Tiber's greatest achievement against a being that is effectively himself, wouldn't it? All this is really doing is making me hate either group less and the Thalmor more.

For proof:
http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Thalmor_Dossier:_Ulfric_Stormcloak

In fact, doing the Civil War either way hampers the Thalmor, as they want to wipe out the Empire with little effort. Strengthening the Empire prevents them from doing that, and a Stormcloak win prevents them from gaining as much as they would if the Empire won instead -- and then they need to fight the Stormcloaks after they fight the shambles of the Empire. Even then, Skyrim is just a country, while the Empire could become so much more.