Stormcloaks or Imperial Empire: Which is better?

#121SoulOfFaythPosted 1/29/2013 8:12:34 AM
So you're defending the Empire betraying their own people? lol
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The mind is like a parachute: it only works when it's open
#122nathraxhPosted 1/29/2013 12:39:26 PM
SoulOfFayth posted...
So you're defending the Empire betraying their own people? lol


Exactly which betrayal are you referring to? Let's face it, the Empire's been doing a lot of that lately.

I'm guessing it's not Hammerfell, 'cause I already explained I wasn't defending that betrayal, despite the sheer ball-breaking amount of stupid with which the Redguards conducted the early campaign in Hammerfell. Yeah, they pulled it out of their ass later, but their initial conduct was terrible, which says to me the Emperor wasn't too sorry to see them go at the time he signed the Concordat.

If it's Skyrim, well, IMO the Nords need to man up. If the Imperials, who suffered the worst atrocities occupation by the Dominion could inflict on them, can set aside their Talos worship during the cease-fire, knowing full well the war will start again soon and that victory will bring religious freedom again, then the Nords, whose homeland was comfortably untouched by the war, can damn well do so, too. Let's not forget that Talos is just as important to the Imperials as to the Nords. From what I've seen in this game, the only reason the Nords give a damn about him is that he was a Nord. The Imperials were the ones to spread his cult and popularize his worship - they just know it's pragmatic to keep it on the down-low now, rather than get snatched up by the Thalmor, thus depriving the Empire of fighting bodies. The Nords, by continuing to defiantly worship Talos, are just weakening the human side in the inevitable war that's coming soon.
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Dwarf shortage.
#123Orichalon94Posted 1/29/2013 1:00:43 PM
Imperials all day long. I see the Empire as similar to the Roman empire, or England crushing Scotland and Wales, or the British empire crushing 3rd world countries, and I sympathise more with power, than barbarians.
#124nathraxhPosted 1/29/2013 1:25:37 PM
Orichalon94 posted...
England crushing Scotland and Wales,


Dude, you can't say that, we signed an Act of Union with them both!Yeah screw it, we crushed them.
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Dwarf shortage.
#125SoulOfFaythPosted 1/29/2013 3:29:01 PM
So the Nords who can't practice their religion on threat of death just need to man up. I wish people would make it that easy when they're crying about the Dunmer in Windhelm.
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The mind is like a parachute: it only works when it's open
#126nathraxhPosted 1/29/2013 3:35:26 PM
SoulOfFayth posted...
So the Nords who can't practice their religion on threat of death just need to man up. I wish people would make it that easy when they're crying about the Dunmer in Windhelm.


The Imperials can't practice it either. If people like Elisif and Rikke can keep their Talos worship secret, along with, most likely, the rest of the Empire ('cause y'know, that ain't much of a thing) then the Nords can too. Talos is, logically, a symbol of defiance for all humans. As I've stated, he meant just as much to the Imperials as the Nords. And if anyone has a reason to demonstrate defiance, it's the Imperials who lived under Dominion occupation. The Nords, by comparison, have experienced none of what the Dominion can do. The Imperials know that another war is coming, and to get themselves vaporized by the Thalmor now is to deprive the Empire's legions of another fighting body. The Nords are unable to put their pride aside for the cause of final victory, and are thus harming the war effort by refusing to worship in secret.
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Dwarf shortage.
#127SoulOfFaythPosted 1/29/2013 3:41:15 PM
Evidently Talos didn't have as much meaning to the imperials because they gave him up pretty easily, the nords are willing to stand up for their beliefs. And the Empire staying in skyrim despite the opposition isn't pride? One could argue that the people would be better off if they'd just retreat.
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The mind is like a parachute: it only works when it's open
#128nathraxhPosted 1/29/2013 3:51:45 PM
SoulOfFayth posted...
Evidently Talos didn't have as much meaning to the imperials because they gave him up pretty easily, the nords are willing to stand up for their beliefs. And the Empire staying in skyrim despite the opposition isn't pride? One could argue that the people would be better off if they'd just retreat.


The Emperor gave him up temporarily, and without consulting anyone else, Nord or Imperial. 'Cause that's what Mede does - he gets s*** done his own way, for better or worse. He's human, and despite his badass achievements, has failings like anyone else.

The Nords are willing to stand up for their beliefs? Good for them, now see my previous post to learn why that's a bad thing.

The Empire staying in Skyrim despite the opposition isn't pride? Yes, among numerous other things, it is. But what's wrong with pride itself? Nothing. If you're really clutching at straws so much now that you're picking out the fact I mentioned the Nords' pride as a weakness, you should really go back and re-read. It's what the Nords take pride in that's causing harm to the war effort. Whether the Empire's refusal to let Skyrim go is caused by pride or not, their desire to keep it bolsters their power and thus assists in the final victory. As I said in my long post earlier (reposted below), the Empire keeping Skyrim brings about the only guarantee in what is otherwise a sea of uncertainties.

One could argue that the people would be better off if they'd just retreat? Again, go and read my long-ass post earlier to see why this isn't the case. Sure, it would end the fighting with no casualties, but would leave Skyrim vulnerable to the Dominion.

I'm guessing I might have to explain now what you'll be asking next, in response to my last point. I said it earlier, but I highly doubt you'll read it, so rather than you trying to debate the point across five posts and me having to waste time explaining over the same length, here y'are:

nathraxh posted...

If the Stormcloaks "liberated" Skyrim, there's a small chance they'd be prepared to work with the Empire against the Dominion once the war re-starts (as everyone knows it will). It's yet another small chance as to whether or not the Empire would be prepared to work with Skyrim. It's possible that Hammerfell, having left the Empire, would see the 'Cloaks as a natural ally and give them the help the Empire wouldn't. Hell, maybe the three could work together. But nothing there is certain.

That's a lot of long shots for a war that isn't a guaranteed victory even if they're able to work together. But if the Empire puts down the rebellion, they can ensure they'll get troops from Skyrim. That's pretty much the only guarantee in either equation. And the possibility of Hammerfell siding with the Empire is pretty much equal to it siding with Skyrim. So an Imperial victory gives all the possibilities a Stormcloak victory does, but also comes with a solid guarantee the Stormcloaks don't have.

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Dwarf shortage.
#129Orichalon94Posted 1/31/2013 9:08:59 PM
nathraxh posted...
Orichalon94 posted...
England crushing Scotland and Wales,


Dude, you can't say that, we signed an Act of Union with them both!Yeah screw it, we crushed them.


I meant more like Edward I's Welsh conquest and the Scottish wars of independence. I'm an empire man
#130uniballer92(Topic Creator)Posted 2/3/2013 4:25:56 PM
[This message was deleted at the request of the original poster]