How much more powerfull should Destruction be for you to feel like its not UP?

#151RayzoriumPosted 2/5/2013 2:06:34 PM
lorddrago88 posted...
But the other combat skills also have to rely on other skill trees and equipment. More so in fact.

Explain? Even if you put all your points into magicka, at level 81 you can dual-cast Incinerate at most three times. People don't realize how reliant on equipment they are. With melee, not only do you get more out of your stamina bar, you can do normal attacks at 0 stamina and can do a full strength power attack the moment you get 1 stamina back.

Honestly, if we are talking strictly about perks...

Good points. Going by perk count is very sensible and is probably more practical than specifically restricting alternate skill usage. Personally, I don't like the idea of having so much of your power come from equipment, but that's my own preference.

Also, I don't agree with your totals and am really curious as to how you spent so many points for dual wielding. My current character uses no magic equipment and cruises through Master with only 12 perks related to damage dealing, using only Bound Sword:

http://skyrimcalculator.com/#191681

Ignite...

Unique items kind of muddy up the waters. If we include Ignite, I agree that it pretty much blows everything out of the water. It costs 8 magicka for without any cast reduction, which more than addresses my only complaint about Destruction. 3x the damage of Incinerate at 1/10 the cost? Yes please.

Evil_Sandwich posted...
Player Character magic still sucks compared to the magic NPC mages get.

It can feel that way, and I think anyone who remembers their first encounter with Hamelyn can agree with that. Their spells aren't any more powerful than ours, though.
#152jammymacsterPosted 2/5/2013 2:16:51 PM
Rayzorium posted...
Explain? Even if you put all your points into magicka, at level 81 you can dual-cast Incinerate at most three times.


At 100 Destruction spell cost is reduced by 40%. With the perk spell cost will be 30% of the spell base cost. So you'd get around 10 casts. That's not taking into consideration basic robes people can easily find or obtain from quests that reduce spell cost further. Also magicka regeneration would be rather quick with that much magicka.
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AKA: Valadez
#153LinkLuigiPosted 2/5/2013 2:20:16 PM
lorddrago88 posted...
Rayzorium posted...

Agreed, but at this point, a pretty big point of discussion is not relying on equipment or other skill trees.


But the other combat skills also have to rely on other skill trees and equipment. More so in fact.

I'd rather do Master with only Destruction over One-handed/Two-Handed/Archery if I'm not allowed to use Alchemy/Smithing/Enchanting.


That's the thing, that's not entirely true at all. If not allowed any other skill usage, I'd rather go melee over Destruction (and archery, for that matter).

Simply because the spells are too dang expensive. With Melee (One/Two Handed), you can swing without being gimped for running your resource (Mana, Stamina) dry. At the same time, you are still able to block. You don't need a point in Block to hit LT, unless in this weird example we're completely limiting our legit button actions as well. Not to mention, you can chain a power attack to a regular attack instantaneously. With only an unenchanted Daedric sword, you can take enemies out without much issue if you play smart.

With mana, once the enemies get tougher, you WILL run out of steam before you can wipe them out, unless you want to spam weaker spells all day until you get bored and turn the system off. On Master, where the only thing that raises is the amount of damage enemies do and receive, the weaknesses of pure Destruction starts to show.

I see this argument here a few times, but mana costs is the main issue with Destruction. Granted, all Expert spells are expensive, but Destruction spells are the only ones that require spammage.

Quoting the High Elf racial ability does little to make up for the mana cost, unless you're trying to say that you MUST be a high elf in order to properly run Destruction, and that's a flaw.
#154RayzoriumPosted 2/5/2013 2:50:40 PM
jammymacster posted...
At 100 Destruction spell cost is reduced by 40%. With the perk spell cost will be 30% of the spell base cost. So you'd get around 10 casts.

You've kind of illustrated my point - most people advocating for Destruction are so used to extensive cost reduction that they've lost touch with just how ridiculously expensive spells are. I had already taken those into account; it's really that bad:

298 (base cost) * .6 (100 skill) * .5 (perk) * 2.8 (dual cast) = 250.32. You can only cast that three times.

That's not taking into consideration basic robes people can easily find or obtain from quests that reduce spell cost further. Also magicka regeneration would be rather quick with that much magicka.

Yes, enchanted gear you find makes a huge difference, but this was a direct response to someone saying that Destruction is less reliant on equipment. And regeneration is still pretty slow if you don't have any buffs, although, at that amount I agree that it does picks up with a decent robe.
#155Evil_SandwichPosted 2/5/2013 3:07:40 PM(edited)
Rayzorium posted...
Their spells aren't any more powerful than ours, though.


Wrong.

Turn the difficulty up to Master and go fight Malkoran at Kilkreath Ruins once you reach level 40 or higher.

His Ice Storm hits for like 1000+ damage.

I once fought him with a level 81 pure mage who had 450hp and 85%magic resist and he still took off like 75% of my character's health bar in one spell.

NPC Destruction magic >>>>>>>> PC Destruction magic
#156RayzoriumPosted 2/5/2013 3:09:19 PM
Maybe you got hit at the same time with something else? The only magic resist I have is a Necromage-boosted Agent of Mara and he only did about 1/4 of my 400 health with each Ice Storm. He has both ranks of Augmented Frost, so...

40 (base damage) * 1.5 (Augmented Frost) *2 (Master) * .8125 (magic resist) = 97.5. Nothing weird here.
#157White_OpsPosted 2/5/2013 3:11:00 PM
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#158Evil_SandwichPosted 2/5/2013 3:26:08 PM
Rayzorium posted...
Maybe you got hit at the same time with something else?


Nope, i remember being right in front of him when it happened and all his skeleton minions were already dead, he cast Ice Storm once and my health bar dropped to a ridiculous level.

Only other enemy I've encountered that does that kind of insane damage is those Dual-Wielding Briarheart guys.

I also once read a topic somewhere about Malkoran's Ice Storm one-shotting people at full health so I'm not the only person who has experienced this.
#159RayzoriumPosted 2/5/2013 3:46:58 PM
Interesting, but it's hardly fair to say that NPC spells are more powerful than player spells because of what is obviously a single bugged spell.

Briarhearts definitely do more damage than a player would with the same skills/perks/weapons because of the "Extra Damage 2.5" hidden perk - but I don't know of any caster NPCs that have it, and it likely only affects physical damage anyway.
#160FreeMan5407Posted 2/5/2013 6:01:10 PM
@ rayzorium

what spell? dual cast? and at what level 20, 40, 81? , 20 seconds seem too much for a expert spell vs a single enemy