How much more powerfull should Destruction be for you to feel like its not UP?

#321konokonohamaruPosted 2/8/2013 11:39:37 AM
Guys guys. There is only one way to settle this.

MULTIPLAYER 1v1 DEATHMATCH


With ELO ranking system
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#322FreeMan5407Posted 2/8/2013 11:46:19 AM(edited)
konokonohamaru posted...
Guys guys. There is only one way to settle this.

MULTIPLAYER 1v1 DEATHMATCH


With ELO ranking system


jajaja it will be like this

destruction x40spam stagger-stagger-stagger-stagger flawless victory , ironically melee have no chance unless is face to face

however melee with 100% magicka absorption will have a fatality
#323LinkLuigiPosted 2/8/2013 11:55:13 AM
Darg727 posted...
LinkLuigi posted...
Orpheus_Demigod posted...
There we go, we've found the problem with destruction magic we can all go home now.


This is where I disagree. Despite this being said, we will never, ever be able to put this topic to rest and go home and you know it. So I'd advise you to take a seat. I'll pass the wine. lorddraggo has the cheese, but you'll need to get the crackers.


While we wait for the crackers do you think master spells are fine and if not why in your opinion?


Well, I don't use em' that much. I find Dragonhide useful...but sorta impractical. I've always played a spellsword, using juuust enough magicka to be able to buff myself up. Ebonyflesh has been good enough, and my shield defends me admirably. I've never needed to take the time to cast Dragonhide, and it doesn't last long enough, even with dual casting, for my taste. This is just a personal thing, mind you. My biggest issue with it is that you cannot cast the spell with Become Ethereal up. You can prepare it, but if you cast it, you'll waste all your MP with no effects other than ending the shout prematurely.

Mass Paralyze is just as useful as it seems. That it can be used with the Become Ethereal (BE) makes it golden.

I don't care for the Master Illusion spells. Or, I've never tried it. It just seems so...extra.. I've no need to turn a town hostile or whatnot, and no dungeon has been enough for me to justify wasting time to cast it. Pacify/Fury works well enough for me.

I've yet to try out the Master Lighting spell, I'm sad to say, but it seems pretty cool. Fire one is...eh. Ice on sucks all sorts of crack.

If you have Dragonborn, you get one time powers (one time as in you'll have to refill it after use) that acts exactly as the way those spells act.
#324Darg727Posted 2/8/2013 3:09:26 PM
LinkLuigi posted...
Darg727 posted...
LinkLuigi posted...
Orpheus_Demigod posted...
There we go, we've found the problem with destruction magic we can all go home now.


This is where I disagree. Despite this being said, we will never, ever be able to put this topic to rest and go home and you know it. So I'd advise you to take a seat. I'll pass the wine. lorddraggo has the cheese, but you'll need to get the crackers.


While we wait for the crackers do you think master spells are fine and if not why in your opinion?


Well, I don't use em' that much. I find Dragonhide useful...but sorta impractical. I've always played a spellsword, using juuust enough magicka to be able to buff myself up. Ebonyflesh has been good enough, and my shield defends me admirably. I've never needed to take the time to cast Dragonhide, and it doesn't last long enough, even with dual casting, for my taste. This is just a personal thing, mind you. My biggest issue with it is that you cannot cast the spell with Become Ethereal up. You can prepare it, but if you cast it, you'll waste all your MP with no effects other than ending the shout prematurely.

Mass Paralyze is just as useful as it seems. That it can be used with the Become Ethereal (BE) makes it golden.

I don't care for the Master Illusion spells. Or, I've never tried it. It just seems so...extra.. I've no need to turn a town hostile or whatnot, and no dungeon has been enough for me to justify wasting time to cast it. Pacify/Fury works well enough for me.

I've yet to try out the Master Lighting spell, I'm sad to say, but it seems pretty cool. Fire one is...eh. Ice on sucks all sorts of crack.

If you have Dragonborn, you get one time powers (one time as in you'll have to refill it after use) that acts exactly as the way those spells act.


I like to use blizzard as a mass slow effect to give me a little extra time to control a crowd of enemies as in I then use a beefed up frenzy to pull away some as my frost thrall runs in to halt the enemy for a few more seconds as I either a)firestorm followed by fireballs or chain lightning them for groups, or b) lay down another rune before my thrall dies and I spear and incinerate the perp to death and move on. As you can probably tell I like to do a lot at once. I don't like random chance so I don't paralyze except for fun.

On single opponents I like to frost rune flame cloak and lightning storm
#325Captain_ChinoPosted 2/9/2013 1:40:48 PM
The thing about Destruction is that is built for a completely different play style. It's pretty fun to use, but only in the context of using all your other magic. Area of effects, not needing to aim, and range. Yeah, a bow can do range for more damage, but it is slower, requires more finesse to aim, and most importantly, takes both hands. Destruction is fun, which is all that really matters.

The games difficulty is such a joke though. Conjuration and a follower means everyone else is too busy to come after you, and you can just zap them and laugh. Illusion or paralyze nerfs anyone who tries to come after you.

If you feel like it takes to long to zap people to death, just turn the difficulty down. The only thing about destruction damage is that it is one of few variables you can't just passively manipulate. But you still can net the same effect in the end.

I think on my next play through, I am going to try and use Conjuration only. Bound weapons, and get Dead Thrall early enough to use it on Ulfric and what not.
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#326JohnRyan1228Posted 2/9/2013 1:59:59 PM(edited)
The thing about destruction and one handed is that they both need other skills to be viable. Destruction needs illusion and enchanting, one handed needs smithing and enchanting. Or you can use a bound sword, which works very well. Sprinkle some alchemy on top of that, and you are op. Either way it all comes down to your skills at skill/perk distribution. If you know what you're doing, both are plenty viable.

Although I do believe that they should make destruction more powerful as you grow.
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#327FreeMan5407Posted 2/9/2013 2:14:28 PM
JohnRyan1228 posted...
The thing about destruction and one handed is that they both need other skills to be viable. Destruction needs illusion and enchanting, one handed needs smithing and enchanting. Or you can use a bound sword, which works very well. Sprinkle some alchemy on top of that, and you are op. Either way it all comes down to your skills at skill/perk distribution. If you know what you're doing, both are plenty viable.

Although I do believe that they should make destruction more powerful as you grow.


obviously this, i have been repeating the problem 100 times , not only destruction feel terrible unbalance but the damage is low compare to the other skills

close range: melee damage and dps is godly
medium range: destruction got the upper hand on DPS
long range: thanks to sneak, critical , enchanting archery do high damage and dps

the FACT is both melee and archery at those range do far more damage and dps than destruction in medium range
#328LiqiudusSnake(Topic Creator)Posted 2/10/2013 9:27:23 PM
bump. Anybody elses opinions are more than welcome also
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#329Darg727Posted 2/12/2013 5:34:04 PM
Taking a second look at Ben_zor's math, I can only dual cast incinerate only about every second.

With 2/2 augmented element, mask, and 100% fortify


Firestorm: 1426 magicka
25ft = 265*1.5*1.25*2 = 993.75
65ft = 215*1.5*1.25*2 = 806.25
100ft = 140*1.5*1.25*2 = 525
40% burn factored in 100ft damage

Blizzard: 1106 magicka
40ft = 20*1.5*1.25*2 = 75 per sec.
Deals same to stamina
Bugged with player resistance reducing damage. Don't know if it was fixed.

Lightning storm: 138/s magicka
N/a = 75*1.5*1.25*2 = 281.25 per sec.
Half to magicka and disintegrates

Incinerate: 298 magicka / 655.6 dual cast
N/a = 60*1.5*1.25*2 = 225 / 495 dual cast
Add 10% for burn

I just want to point out most enemies won't survive a fully buffed firestorm within 65ft especially low level even on master.
#330LockeadonPosted 2/14/2013 2:36:10 AM
ben_fox posted...
You kids and your refusal to do the slightest amount of legwork and math on your own are adorable.

Enchantment damage is an additive modifier applied at the end of the damage calc, which means that its contribution to overall weapon damage becomes ever more puny as raw base damage and multiplicative modifiers increase. When your base swing is dealing 577 points of damage, a 40 point damage enchant is about a 6% increase in final damage. To put this in perspective, just the 13 point boost from 100 Smithing and Dragon forging results in about a 46% increase in final damage. That is, all else being equal, (same skill level, perks, Fortify effects) you will deal around 46% more damage with the +13 base damage Warhammer than you will with a raw one.

But since using setups that are likely to be used in actual gameplay (yes, people who don't fail at Destruction routinely use Fortify Destruction potions, what do you think all that weight capacity not taken up by armor is going towards?) doesn't seem to cut the mustard, here you go.

These numbers represent, to the best of my knowledge, the highest guaranteed damage you can hit using each method, with all gloves off and everything in full-on kill it now mode. Again, DPS for Incinerate is calculated using x1.8 to allow for projectile travel time and slight adjustments of aim. Since I'm going to hear about it because people apparently have no reading comprehension, highest GUARANTEED damage, Chaos Damage is ignored because there is no guarantee of how many, if any, elements will proc on a given swing. Seeker of Might is likewise discounted due to lack of any reliable information on what exactly "combat skills are 10% more effective" actually means.

Dual Cast Incinerate + Augmented Flames 2, Ahzidal, +150% Fortify Destruction potion, with Deadly Aversion to Fire applied to target
Per cast: 60 x 2.2 x 1.5 x 1.25 x 2.5 x 2 x 1.1 = 1361
Approximate DPS: 2449.8

Dual Cast Incinerate + Aspect of Terror, Augmented Flames 2, Ahzidal, +150% Fortify Destruction potion, with Deadly Aversion to Fire applied to target
Per cast: (60 + 10) x 2.2 x 1.5 x 1.25 x 2.5 x 2 x 1.1 = 1588
Approximate DPS: 2858.4

Max-tempered Dragonbone Warhammer (100 Smithing + Dragon perk, 4x +29% Fortify Smithing items, +130% Fortify Smithing potion used during tempering) and enchanted with 100 Enchanting, Storm Enchanter, Fire Enchanter, Augmented Flames 2, Augmented Shock 2 and a +30% Fortify Enchanting potion + Two-Handed 100, Barbarian 5, 4x +47% Fortify Two-Handed items, +150% Fortify Two-Handed, Deadly Aversion to Fire and Deadly Aversion to Shock applied to target

Per swing: [(28 + 46) x 1.5 x 2 x 2.88 x 2.5] + (82 x 2 x 1.1) + (82 x2) = 1942
Approximate DPS: 1165.2

There you go. You can decide for yourself which you think is better.


since hes including poisons this time ill mention that deadly aversion to magic is also available to increase destruction damage and that both aversion to ^element^ and aversion to magic stack and have their affects increased by using aversion to poison first. so, much bigger damage than this can be obtained by incinerate than is listed here.

on the other hand adding direct life damage poisons to the melee weapons will also have a huge affect on THEIR final damage. i'm not as well versed in poisons as i am in destruction so i don't know of the top of my head what the actual increase would be.
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