How much more powerfull should Destruction be for you to feel like its not UP?

#81LeoduxPosted 1/31/2013 11:47:52 AM
MarquisRyiz posted...
From: Leodux | #046

And without smithing & enchanting your precious weapons would do crap damage.


Without enchanting and alchemy the same can be said about destruction. It's cool to remove perks from melee to try and prove that destruction isn't crap, but when the tables are turned to say the same about destruction all the pure magi players scream blasphemy. Quite foolish.

I challenge you. Go though at least expert with a melee warrior or choice of being 1 or two handed, stealth archer and a pure destruction mage with no perks, enchants or smithing. With melee or archery you can get miles farther than a base mage.

Adding in perks, enchants, potion, and smithing. Sure Destruction is now viable but that doesn't make it a good idea. In the end range and melee combat will still do far more damage and kill much much faster without looping. Where as the destruction would have to depend on impact. to survive, and all the while still doing less damage than the other forms of damage. Then melee still can comeback impact with this:

http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Windshear

100% stagger to everything. That only leaves magic with one advantage over melee that being range, but that's near moot unless you have a place to run if you're not using perks.

Again you have to look at it two ways, either 1. Destruction magic is underpowered or 2. Melee and archery are overpowered. Regardless of how you are looking at hit destruction magic damage is subpar being saved by impact.

This isn't hard to understand, and I find it funny that there are still people trying to argue this crap, destruction is simply underpowered when compared to other ways of fighting even within the magic tree. Again while I'll admit it's still viable and powerful enough to play the game on any difficulty. You sure as heck aren't doing it alone, as most of the game you won't have the really won't have magicka for it calling for enchants, or alchemy for potions and being high elf sure as heck isn't going to be enough to make it even remotely usable without any perks, or bonuses. Starting to make me question if you've even played the game. Since release I never heard a claim like being high elf is enough to do destruction without perks or anything. Not only that when asked "with what" that's all you put down as if that's the end all be all for owning with destruction magic. It's just....ignorant.

When you remove, weapons, armors, perks, enchants, shouts and skills all you're left with is racial traits. You can't use highborn it's an ability, and it's +50 magicka only enough for 1 single apprentice spell. As I said before I'm doing a near pure mage as a red guard run now on expert and I've almost never been in a spot where I've said, "Hurr durr dat der +50 magicka from the Altmer would have saved my life."

Please enlighten me, because if being High elf is that good I'd starting over today.

So basically what I've gathered from this huge ass post is that you've never played a mage beyond level 5.

1) No, you don't need alchemy & enchanting to make use of Destruction. Not only have you never extensively played a mage but you also did not read a single I post I made in this topic, save for the one you quoted. However, you DO need to invest in the crafting skills to make melee and archery viable. That's just a fact. Unless you played on Novice or something.

2) No perks and play on Expert? Yeah, I don't think I'm gonna get far no matter what playstyle I'm utilizing.

3) For everything else, I'll just point to what I said earlier: you don't know how to play a mage. That too is a fact it seems.
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War Is The Answer
#82Belgarion05Posted 1/31/2013 12:09:03 PM
1. Damage increase based on increasing destruction skill and perks
2. Increase damage of all spells. Flames/Firebold/Fireball/...etc. should all be viable to a certain extent.

Example: A Draugr Deathlord surrounded by 5 other minions.
Current solution: FIREBALL EVERYTHING

Solution after Fix: Fireball until Aoe Destroys the weakest draugr. Pick them off with ranged single target spell. Finish off low health Deathlord with Flames.

Right now, you have to get reduced cost gear. Which means that you pretty much just spam expert level spells the whole time. The number of spells isn't impressive as it is, and most of them become useless by level 30.
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"You don't have to burn books to destroy a culture. Just get people to stop reading them." - Ray Bradbury
#83FreeMan5407Posted 1/31/2013 12:09:15 PM
aDomination posted...
PimpHandofGod posted...
Spell crafting


That.


this too, people say it sucks , but you can make useful powerful destruction magic

oblivion destro>>>> skyrim destruction
skyrim conjuration, alteration, illusion, enchanting, restoration >>>> destruction
skyrim 1h, 2h, archery heck even sneak and block >>>> pseudo destro
#84KoRiy5000Posted 1/31/2013 12:32:12 PM
if you cant understand why the high elfs power is the best for a mage then i cant talk to you


but on topic id just like the fortify dest damage as an enchant. then everyone can do whatever they want
#85GBALoserPosted 1/31/2013 12:36:49 PM
KoRiy5000 posted...
if you cant understand why the high elfs power is the best for a mage then i cant talk to you


but on topic id just like the fortify dest damage as an enchant. then everyone can do whatever they want


Honestly, yes so that if ever implemented everyone will scream how OP Destro becomes.
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Every once in a while I realize the human race may be worth saving. Of course, then I come back here, but still, those are good moments. -Readyman
#86LeoduxPosted 1/31/2013 12:41:09 PM
KoRiy5000 posted...
if you cant understand why the high elfs power is the best for a mage then i cant talk to you


but on topic id just like the fortify dest damage as an enchant. then everyone can do whatever they want

As if Destruction needs a fortify damage enchant.
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War Is The Answer
#87KoRiy5000Posted 1/31/2013 1:20:19 PM
Leodux posted...
KoRiy5000 posted...
if you cant understand why the high elfs power is the best for a mage then i cant talk to you


but on topic id just like the fortify dest damage as an enchant. then everyone can do whatever they want

As if Destruction needs a fortify damage enchant.


it doesnt but i would like to be able to use flames endgame (and not the "burst fire" that people suggest)
#88MarquisRyizPosted 1/31/2013 2:28:10 PM
From: Leodux | #081


1) No, you don't need alchemy & enchanting to make use of Destruction. Not only have you never extensively played a mage but you also did not read a single I post I made in this topic, save for the one you quoted. However, you DO need to invest in the crafting skills to make melee and archery viable. That's just a fact. Unless you played on Novice or something.

2) No perks and play on Expert? Yeah, I don't think I'm gonna get far no matter what playstyle I'm utilizing.

3) For everything else, I'll just point to what I said earlier: you don't know how to play a mage. That too is a fact it seems.


What other quotes, abusing glitches? Felt it wasn't worth the effort to comment on, but alright. Glitching is cool to do with destruction, but when warriors or archers talk about glitch abuse everyone gets butthurt.

1&2. Point is you don't need smithing or enchanting to make use of melee. Then I first started the game on release I did over 80% of the content before I even touched any crafting skill, just playing the game with loot drops and items I payed for in the story on expert, playing just fine. You DO NOT need to invest in anything else with melee. Archer I would say getting stealth helps, but you don't need to put perks in it. It's like you people here are going off hear say and a bunch of arguments from people online. How about you get in the game and play without trying to do optimal builds, number crunching and think outside the box while enjoying yourself. With smart play you'll be surprised how far you can get.

Which beings me to my no perk on expert. For archer and warrior it isn't that bad but I guess you wouldn't know. While hard as heck after about level 30-35 for warrior things started to get hard for archer about 20 less I was able to sneak attack and run. Honestly don't see myself beating the game short of just going though the main quest alone it's pretty fun. Never did it on mage, but fun no less. More or less depends on the area you're fighting in. After a while it just becomes hit and run till things die. Unless it's a mage then you just try to avoid it. Might be able to beat it with Windshear, but I didn't know about it till after my fails.

3. I'm playing a magi quite well well thank you very much. Matter of fact every single one of my character builds use basic destruction magic, because of impact. Mainly to stop runners or deal extra DPS while closing in on the target, but that still doesn't make it balanced when taking it into comparing it to other forms of attacks quoting iDubstep here. When I look at it, I see a skill that's powerful enough as I said to do everything you need to, but when you compare it too archery or melee combat it's subpar in terms of damage. It's as simple as playing the game, even a one eyed bat can see that.

One of the things pro-destruction players say is no mage uses just one skill, i.e only destruction. Same applies to the other attacking forms. When applying the same effort to all forms of combat, melee and archer will always top mid to late game. Destruction is BA, till like level 10-15, then it quickly begins to stuffer when killing targets. Nothing the High Elf has is going to make up for that. Sure extra regen, more magicka is pimpin' but that isn't damage. Overtime the effectiveness just isn't there wthout impact. How it's easy to tell that destruction magic isn't on par? Simple, look at nearly every single post that has any type of bashing for melee or archer try to take things away or set special conditions in which it would make magic look better. Take away this or take away that and melee and archer stinks all the while trying to keep perks and bonuses for magic. It's not fair, looking at both in the same light under normal gameplay conditions other forms of attacks are better, period. Period.
#89LeoduxPosted 1/31/2013 3:38:59 PM
MarquisRyiz posted...
1&2. Point is you don't need smithing or enchanting to make use of melee. Then I first started the game on release I did over 80% of the content before I even touched any crafting skill, just playing the game with loot drops and items I payed for in the story on expert, playing just fine. You DO NOT need to invest in anything else with melee. Archer I would say getting stealth helps, but you don't need to put perks in it. It's like you people here are going off hear say and a bunch of arguments from people online. How about you get in the game and play without trying to do optimal builds, number crunching and think outside the box while enjoying yourself. With smart play you'll be surprised how far you can get.

Calling bull s*** on that one. You DO need to put points into smithing and/or enchanting to have effective weapons and armor. If you were playing on Novice then perhaps this would not be the case.

MarquisRyiz posted...
Which beings me to my no perk on expert. For archer and warrior it isn't that bad but I guess you wouldn't know. While hard as heck after about level 30-35 for warrior things started to get hard for archer about 20 less I was able to sneak attack and run. Honestly don't see myself beating the game short of just going though the main quest alone it's pretty fun. Never did it on mage, but fun no less. More or less depends on the area you're fighting in. After a while it just becomes hit and run till things die. Unless it's a mage then you just try to avoid it. Might be able to beat it with Windshear, but I didn't know about it till after my fails.

Yeah, employing hit & run tactics sounds sooo fun >.> But even then it would be next to impossible not to die every 1-2 hits under those restrictions. Try fighting a Dragur Deathlord on Expert with no perks and see how quickly your ass gets handed to you.

MarquisRyiz posted...
3. I'm playing a magi quite well well thank you very much. Matter of fact every single one of my character builds use basic destruction magic, because of impact. Mainly to stop runners or deal extra DPS while closing in on the target, but that still doesn't make it balanced when taking it into comparing it to other forms of attacks quoting iDubstep here. When I look at it, I see a skill that's powerful enough as I said to do everything you need to, but when you compare it too archery or melee combat it's subpar in terms of damage. It's as simple as playing the game, even a one eyed bat can see that.

Really? Because it seems like you have no idea what it takes for a mage, or Destruction, to be any good. Tell me another lie please.
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War Is The Answer
#90LeoduxPosted 1/31/2013 3:47:01 PM
MarquisRyiz posted...
One of the things pro-destruction players say is no mage uses just one skill, i.e only destruction. Same applies to the other attacking forms. When applying the same effort to all forms of combat, melee and archer will always top mid to late game. Destruction is BA, till like level 10-15, then it quickly begins to stuffer when killing targets. Nothing the High Elf has is going to make up for that. Sure extra regen, more magicka is pimpin' but that isn't damage. Overtime the effectiveness just isn't there wthout impact.

Destruction is only useful until level 10-15? Really? That's news to me. I guess my level 30 mage killing dragons using the Apprentice fire spell on Adept was just a dream. Granted it was starting to become ever more apparent that I should use the Adept-level spell, but I was still doing pretty well.

MarquisRyiz posted...
How it's easy to tell that destruction magic isn't on par? Simple, look at nearly every single post that has any type of bashing for melee or archer try to take things away or set special conditions in which it would make magic look better. Take away this or take away that and melee and archer stinks all the while trying to keep perks and bonuses for magic. It's not fair, looking at both in the same light under normal gameplay conditions other forms of attacks are better, period. Period

What does Destruction need to be good? Only one skill. Sadly the can't be said for melee & archery.
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War Is The Answer