Miraak was the first Dragonborn right?

#11Brenz0rPosted 1/31/2013 9:23:08 PM
GriffRoberts posted...
From: Brenz0r | #007
That leaves you with 4450 years total, plus maybe a century's worth of the Merethic Era. He's about as old as Divayth Fyr, and has about a century and a half on Serana.


Any exact dates on Serana? All I remember is "There's an Empire in Cyrodiil?", but I'm not sure if there was anything more specific.

I put something together a little while back (it was late and I was tired, so I may have missed some things):

- Serana doesn't have any clue about an "Empire" to the south of Skyrim, so she predates Alessia (likely by a margin of a century or two).
- She recognises Windhelm, which was around before she was. Windhelm is believed to be the oldest city in Skyrim, and dates back to the late Merethic.
- She calls Windhelm the "City of Kings" (implying at least Ysgramor and Harald, possibly more).
- She does not seem to have been a contemporary of Ysgramor (the migratory-fleet one, that is), though she's probably within a few centuries of him.
- Based on this, assuming she wasn't born in Skyrim is... well, I won't call it a complete waste of time, but it would be very unlikely.
- The last colony ship to come from Atmora was in 1E 68.
- She expresses horror at the Falmer camp. While I can't remember her exact words, she does seem to postdate their transformation.
- Harald destroyed the last stronghold of the Dragon Cult in 1E 140, and I can't recall her saying anything about living through the Dragon Wars or a particular dragon presence.
- She doesn't seem aware that around about 1E 240, Skyrim conquered Morrowind and High Rock temporarily.

Now, I'm going to place her birth and early life around 1E 150-200, becoming a vampire when she was still quite young. This is mostly because there isn't a set timeline for the Merethic era, but I'll note that she could easily be a fair bit older than that, depending on how far back into the Merethic Ysgramor's migration was. The oldest date in Mundus is ME 2500 (the construction of Ur-Tower and the end of the Dawn Era with the beginnings of linear time). However, Serana displays no knowledge of Atmora, so the people who came from there were probably at least a generation or two removed from her (alternately, she may have never had any contact with them). It's a very narrow timeframe, I admit.

Since she was locked up long before Alessia's empire, I'll also guess that the latest possible (and mathematically easy) date for her imprisonment in Dimhollow Crypt is 1E 200-220. This is cutting things very close to Alessia's rebellion in 1E 243, so the date probably can't be pushed much beyond that.

First Era: 2720 years (including 1008 missing years from the Dragon Break) dating from an assumed imprisonment in Dimhollow of 1E 200.
Second Era: 897 years.
Third Era: 433 years.
Fourth Era: 200 years (Serana is awakened in 4E 201).

So she was stuck in that tomb for 4250 years. Discounting the Dragon Break, it drops to 3242 years.

I wouldn't think Miraak is already many centuries old by the time the Dragon Wars rolled around; they were caused by the tyrannical rule of the Dragon Priests, who were contemporary to Miraak. Or were they?

The Dragon Cult existed as part of Atmoran totem worship. Something changed about it when it came to Tamriel, and the Dragon Cult became cruel and domineering. The actual Dragon Wars took place sometime in the very late Merethic, with a bit of spillover into the very early First Era (the final stronghold of the Dragon Cult was destroyed in 1E 140).
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#12GriffRobertsPosted 1/31/2013 9:34:43 PM
From: Brenz0r | #011
The Dragon Cult existed as part of Atmoran totem worship. Something changed about it when it came to Tamriel, and the Dragon Cult became cruel and domineering. The actual Dragon Wars took place sometime in the very late Merethic, with a bit of spillover into the very early First Era (the final stronghold of the Dragon Cult was destroyed in 1E 140).


But the Dragon Wars were a result against the tyranny of the Tamrielic Dragon Priests, though, wasn't it? Beforehand, the Cult managed to keep stability between dragon and man by collecting tribute for the dragons, and worshiping them. When the Cult became tyrannical, the people rebelled and tribute was not paid; boom, Dragon Wars.

Come to think of it, Miraak couldn't have predated the tyrannical Priests. Felldir and the others asked him to help them defeat Alduin, so he definitely disappeared to Apocrypha around the time Alduin was still a problem. This means that Vahlok was also around during that time, except he wasn't evil. I wonder what happened on Solstheim after Alduin was sent forward in time, and the Cult started to collapse.

And how about the Skaal? IIRC, Lost Legacies and "The Guardian and the Traitor" imply that the Skaal's religion might have originated from the Dragon Cult, and by extension animal totem worship. What implications does that have for the All-Maker and the Greedy Man (or, Thartaag the "World Devourer", which sounds like a connection to our favorite World-Eater)
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#13Brenz0rPosted 1/31/2013 9:51:08 PM(edited)
GriffRoberts posted...
But the Dragon Wars were a result against the tyranny of the Tamrielic Dragon Priests, though, wasn't it? Beforehand, the Cult managed to keep stability between dragon and man by collecting tribute for the dragons, and worshiping them. When the Cult became tyrannical, the people rebelled and tribute was not paid; boom, Dragon Wars.

As I said, something changed for the worse in the Dragon Cult at some point after it came to Tamriel. They became domineering and cruel, as well as more akin to theocratic rulers than their original status as a religious group. Eventually, things tipped over and the war began. And Miraak was around during the period of the Dragon Wars, which were in the very late Merethic (the war didn't magically end after Alduin was ripped away from time - there were still strongholds and the process of stamping out the Cult to deal with). I don't see how this conflicts with anything I've said.

What implications does that have for the All-Maker and the Greedy Man (or, Thartaag the "World Devourer", which sounds like a connection to our favorite World-Eater)

The All-Maker is an Anu/Time Dragon proxy. The Greedy Man is Padomay/Space God (i.e. Lorkhan). The Skaal have a different sort of religious worldview to other Mannish races (except for the Ra'Gada via Yokudan myth). While Men generally venerate Lorkhan/Shor, the Skaal do not, and instead venerate the Anu/Anui-El/Auri-El line. Basically, their religion is Merish, not Mannish.
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"We get serious about fictional girl underpants, and kid around when it comes to topics like world hunger." ~Teepo on CAGN
#14GriffRobertsPosted 1/31/2013 10:14:03 PM
From: Brenz0r | #013
I don't see how this conflicts with anything I've said.


It doesn't, I'm just trying to make sense of how all of this fits in with the timeline. Miraak fascinates me, mostly because I'm assuming he was Dragonborn for the purpose of defeating Alduin, but took a different path.
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#15RebelElite791Posted 1/31/2013 11:13:31 PM
Keep in mind that Miraak also spent that time in Oblivion, where the same laws of time don't apply, hence the long-ass age. So it's not so much that he's immortal as that he wasn't in Mundus.
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#16GriffRobertsPosted 1/31/2013 11:17:17 PM
From: RebelElite791 | #015
Keep in mind that Miraak also spent that time in Oblivion, where the same laws of time don't apply, hence the long-ass age. So it's not so much that he's immortal as that he wasn't in Mundus.


Passage of time is confusing in other realms. I'm just going to not worry about that.

You don't suppose Miraak is a lich, like the other Dragon Priests? He isn't all floaty, but we never do see his face (or any of his skin, for that matter), and Mannimarco's proof that liches don't always levitate, or look like corpses.
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