It just seems like there should of been a choice. (Dragonborn Spoilers)

#11GBALoserPosted 2/2/2013 3:40:45 PM(edited)
zerobobo posted...

then why the dialogue specifically saying its not too late to turn away from herma mora at the end? why all the options to openly defy him? and most other daedric princes.

in almost every work of fiction involving souls to have it be claimed by someone / something you have to agree to it. theres plenty of evidence supporting it works that way in TES, as in all the times you can agree to it, and all the times you can say you won't? whenever you say no, and let you keep the artifact for example, they dont say "doesnt matter your soul is mine" they say "well, fine, but using the artifact still spreads my influence".

so unless someone links me evidence that daedric princes have a claim on your soul simply for stealing their artifact or other gifts from them, then i'm going to assume that no, herma mora doesnt have any claim on you.


Pretty much you are forced to work for Herma-Mora out of necessity. Miraak was stuck in Apocrypha, Mora's realm, but he was able to exert his influence onto the mortal realm. The only way to get access to that realm was through Herma-Mora, and the only way Mora was going to let anyone into that realm and grant them the means to stop Miraak was if they bound their soul into his service. This was the price Mora asked for knowledge.

Now, the PC could have said no... and been completely unable to stop Miraak, who would have continued to grow in power and exert even more influence until he could manifest in the mortal realm again. Then you'd be facing down a Dragonborn who could command dragons, as well as take on the aspect of a dragon, not to mention other powers just hinted at. It's the same reason why the shaman agreed to give up the Skaal's secrets; if it was necessary to stop Miraak before he could become unstoppable, then there really was no alternative. Mora put everyone in a no-win situation.

Frea says you can turn away him. However, what does that mean? Miraak turned away from Mora, and he ended up stuck in Apocrypha for thousands of years until Mora got bored with his presence and sicced you on him. Now you're in Miraak's position. How do you defy a Daedra when your soul was paid for a service rendered by him? The artifacts of other Daedra rarely imply soul bondage. Even the OI of Mora didn't require your soul to be bound. As you said, just wielding an artifact does not put put you under their eternal command. However with Mora you HAD to pay your soul to gain the means necessary to beat Miraak.

Now, if they could somehow build a DLC where you try to free yourself from Mora's power, that would be different. Until then, though, you are stuck with him unless a higher Daedra Lord holds a claim to your soul.
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Every once in a while I realize the human race may be worth saving. Of course, then I come back here, but still, those are good moments. -Readyman
#12zeroboboPosted 2/2/2013 3:44:32 PM
GBALoser posted...
zerobobo posted...

then why the dialogue specifically saying its not too late to turn away from herma mora at the end? why all the options to openly defy him? and most other daedric princes.

in almost every work of fiction involving souls to have it be claimed by someone / something you have to agree to it. theres plenty of evidence supporting it works that way in TES, as in all the times you can agree to it, and all the times you can say you won't? whenever you say no, and let you keep the artifact for example, they dont say "doesnt matter your soul is mine" they say "well, fine, but using the artifact still spreads my influence".

so unless someone links me evidence that daedric princes have a claim on your soul simply for stealing their artifact or other gifts from them, then i'm going to assume that no, herma mora doesnt have any claim on you.


Pretty much you are forced to work for Herma-Mora out of necessity. Miraak was stuck in Apocrypha, Mora's realm, but he was able to exert his influence onto the mortal realm. The only way to get access to that realm was through Herma-Mora, and the only way Mora was going to let anyone into that realm and grant them the means to stop Miraak was if they bound their soul into his service. This was the price Mora asked for knowledge.

Now, the PC could have said no... and been completely unable to stop Miraak, who would have continued to grow in power and exert even more influence until he could manifest in the mortal realm again. Then you'd be facing down a Dragonborn who could command dragons, as well as take on the aspect of a dragon, not to mention other powers just hinted at. It's the same reason why the shaman agreed to give up the Skaal's secrets; if it was necessary to stop Miraak before he could become unstoppable, then there really was no alternative. Mora put everyone in a no-win situation.

Frea says you can turn away him. However, what does that mean? Miraak turned away from Mora, and he ended up stuck in Apocrypha for thousands of years until Mora got bored with his presence and sicced you on him. Now you're in Miraak's position. How do you defy a Daedra when your soul was paid for a service rendered by him? The artifacts of other Daedra rarely imply soul bondage. Even the OI of Mora didn't require your soul to be bound. As you said, just wielding an artifact does not put put you under their eternal command. However with Mora you HAD to pay your soul to gain the means necessary to beat Miraak.

Now, if they could somehow build a DLC where you try to free yourself from Mora's power, that would be different. Until then, though, you are stuck with him unless a higher Daedra Lord holds a claim to your soul.


uh, i never worked for him. i opened black books and found secrets in his realm that gave me power, but i never worked for him or cooperated with him. Storn is bound to herma moras realm, i traded him for the final word of bend will. i never gave him my soul. so are you suggesting making a business transaction puts me under his command? thats ridiculous i traded the secrets of the skaal for the secrets of the bend will shout. everything else was me just putzing in his realm.
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Gamertag: Clonedzero
#13PimpHandofGodPosted 2/2/2013 3:48:21 PM
ColonelHawk posted...
PimpHandofGod posted...
If you're a werewolf you automatically belong to Hircine


And if you're a Nightengale, you belong to Nocturnal, but I think the terms for this and the above are spelled out more clearly.


With Nocturnal that's true but you don't have to swear yourself to Hircine to become a werewolf, you only have to drink the blood of one. Even if your forebear doesn't tell you a thing about Hircine you're still his.
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PANDAZ R LAME RUSSIAN DANCING MAN - IKILLMANYBEAR2
#14GBALoserPosted 2/2/2013 4:10:35 PM
uh, i never worked for him. i opened black books and found secrets in his realm that gave me power, but i never worked for him or cooperated with him. Storn is bound to herma moras realm, i traded him for the final word of bend will. i never gave him my soul. so are you suggesting making a business transaction puts me under his command?


Yep. Sucks to be the Dragonborn, huh? Even says so after he offs Miraak. "I have a new dragonborn to serve me." Everything Mora did, whether you thought otherwise, was a net gain for him. Disobedient Dragonborn? No matter. A different Dragonborn is present and, conveniently :D, he needs the very secrets taught to Miraak. So now he is my servant, whether he likes it or not, and he will do what I desire if he wants what he desires.


thats ridiculous i traded the secrets of the skaal for the secrets of the bend will shout. everything else was me just putzing in his realm.


Correction: You traded the Skaal's knowledge for the last word. The first Word you got from a stone, and the second you got when you meet Mora for the first time. But note he didn't mention the price for his "generosity." You had bound yourself to his service by agreeing to hand over Storn. It's only after Miraak is eliminated that Mora reveals the cost of knowledge.
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Every once in a while I realize the human race may be worth saving. Of course, then I come back here, but still, those are good moments. -Readyman
#15darkportal785Posted 2/2/2013 4:15:08 PM
Mora tells you that you'll come back to Apocrypha (and by extension, to him).

As long as you live, he owns you. If you aren't a Nightingale, I'm betting he'll own you after you die as well.
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Hey! Who's that thinkin' nasty thoughts? Nasty boys.
#16GBALoserPosted 2/2/2013 4:19:50 PM
Also, as an aside, every Daedric artifact quest involves a Daeda needing your help, and you get awarded by doing so. DB has you needing a Daedra's help, therefore they are in the pilot's seat (e.g. as Nocturnal grants you power only after you pledge fealty to her, or Vile will grant your "request" whether you like it or not unless he finds it to be a dumb request).
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Every once in a while I realize the human race may be worth saving. Of course, then I come back here, but still, those are good moments. -Readyman
#17zeroboboPosted 2/2/2013 4:32:25 PM
GBALoser posted...
uh, i never worked for him. i opened black books and found secrets in his realm that gave me power, but i never worked for him or cooperated with him. Storn is bound to herma moras realm, i traded him for the final word of bend will. i never gave him my soul. so are you suggesting making a business transaction puts me under his command?


Yep. Sucks to be the Dragonborn, huh? Even says so after he offs Miraak. "I have a new dragonborn to serve me." Everything Mora did, whether you thought otherwise, was a net gain for him. Disobedient Dragonborn? No matter. A different Dragonborn is present and, conveniently :D, he needs the very secrets taught to Miraak. So now he is my servant, whether he likes it or not, and he will do what I desire if he wants what he desires.


thats ridiculous i traded the secrets of the skaal for the secrets of the bend will shout. everything else was me just putzing in his realm.


Correction: You traded the Skaal's knowledge for the last word. The first Word you got from a stone, and the second you got when you meet Mora for the first time. But note he didn't mention the price for his "generosity." You had bound yourself to his service by agreeing to hand over Storn. It's only after Miraak is eliminated that Mora reveals the cost of knowledge.


you can enter realms of oblivion and find stuff without being under the control of anyone. entering apocrphya and grabbing stuff does not put you under his claim.

with something as big as a soul, especially a dragonborn soul, you can't just give them something then a week later go "oh uh, the price was your soul MWHAHAHA" thats the dumbest thing ive ever heard. its awful writing and makes no damn sense. you never bound yourself to his service, you traded some knowledge for other knowledge. it was pretty clear, the only one damned by that transaction was storn.

herma moras line at the end of dragonborn is meant to be ominous, not damning. he's threatening you while also promising that IF you serve him that you'll be rewarded.

your character never made any deal involving serving him, and you had options to even defy him. which clearly indicates that he has no claim over you.

am i the only one that actually paid attention to the dialogue?
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Gamertag: Clonedzero
#18darkportal785Posted 2/2/2013 4:37:53 PM
From: zerobobo | #017
GBALoser posted...
uh, i never worked for him. i opened black books and found secrets in his realm that gave me power, but i never worked for him or cooperated with him. Storn is bound to herma moras realm, i traded him for the final word of bend will. i never gave him my soul. so are you suggesting making a business transaction puts me under his command?


Yep. Sucks to be the Dragonborn, huh? Even says so after he offs Miraak. "I have a new dragonborn to serve me." Everything Mora did, whether you thought otherwise, was a net gain for him. Disobedient Dragonborn? No matter. A different Dragonborn is present and, conveniently :D, he needs the very secrets taught to Miraak. So now he is my servant, whether he likes it or not, and he will do what I desire if he wants what he desires.


thats ridiculous i traded the secrets of the skaal for the secrets of the bend will shout. everything else was me just putzing in his realm.


Correction: You traded the Skaal's knowledge for the last word. The first Word you got from a stone, and the second you got when you meet Mora for the first time. But note he didn't mention the price for his "generosity." You had bound yourself to his service by agreeing to hand over Storn. It's only after Miraak is eliminated that Mora reveals the cost of knowledge.


you can enter realms of oblivion and find stuff without being under the control of anyone. entering apocrphya and grabbing stuff does not put you under his claim.

with something as big as a soul, especially a dragonborn soul, you can't just give them something then a week later go "oh uh, the price was your soul MWHAHAHA" thats the dumbest thing ive ever heard. its awful writing and makes no damn sense. you never bound yourself to his service, you traded some knowledge for other knowledge. it was pretty clear, the only one damned by that transaction was storn.

herma moras line at the end of dragonborn is meant to be ominous, not damning. he's threatening you while also promising that IF you serve him that you'll be rewarded.

your character never made any deal involving serving him, and you had options to even defy him. which clearly indicates that he has no claim over you.

am i the only one that actually paid attention to the dialogue?


Your words of defiance mean nothing when he tells you outright that everything you've done was exactly what he wanted you to do. You tell him no throughout the questline and yet you still do as he wants and asks, regardless.
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Hey! Who's that thinkin' nasty thoughts? Nasty boys.
#19zeroboboPosted 2/2/2013 4:46:24 PM
darkportal785 posted...
From: zerobobo | #017
GBALoser posted...
uh, i never worked for him. i opened black books and found secrets in his realm that gave me power, but i never worked for him or cooperated with him. Storn is bound to herma moras realm, i traded him for the final word of bend will. i never gave him my soul. so are you suggesting making a business transaction puts me under his command?


Yep. Sucks to be the Dragonborn, huh? Even says so after he offs Miraak. "I have a new dragonborn to serve me." Everything Mora did, whether you thought otherwise, was a net gain for him. Disobedient Dragonborn? No matter. A different Dragonborn is present and, conveniently :D, he needs the very secrets taught to Miraak. So now he is my servant, whether he likes it or not, and he will do what I desire if he wants what he desires.


thats ridiculous i traded the secrets of the skaal for the secrets of the bend will shout. everything else was me just putzing in his realm.


Correction: You traded the Skaal's knowledge for the last word. The first Word you got from a stone, and the second you got when you meet Mora for the first time. But note he didn't mention the price for his "generosity." You had bound yourself to his service by agreeing to hand over Storn. It's only after Miraak is eliminated that Mora reveals the cost of knowledge.


you can enter realms of oblivion and find stuff without being under the control of anyone. entering apocrphya and grabbing stuff does not put you under his claim.

with something as big as a soul, especially a dragonborn soul, you can't just give them something then a week later go "oh uh, the price was your soul MWHAHAHA" thats the dumbest thing ive ever heard. its awful writing and makes no damn sense. you never bound yourself to his service, you traded some knowledge for other knowledge. it was pretty clear, the only one damned by that transaction was storn.

herma moras line at the end of dragonborn is meant to be ominous, not damning. he's threatening you while also promising that IF you serve him that you'll be rewarded.

your character never made any deal involving serving him, and you had options to even defy him. which clearly indicates that he has no claim over you.

am i the only one that actually paid attention to the dialogue?


Your words of defiance mean nothing when he tells you outright that everything you've done was exactly what he wanted you to do. You tell him no throughout the questline and yet you still do as he wants and asks, regardless.


theres a big difference between doing something because you want to do it and it just happens to be the same thing he wants. and agreeing to give him your soul and serve him faithfully. huge difference really.

miraak swore to serve him in exchange for power, then he was backing out of the deal. you show up, you're a solution to the miraak problem for herma mora, so he lets you play with his books to beat miraak, then at the end he goes "heyyyy if you take miraaks place i'll give you goodies".

he's making the pitch at the end, saying "serve me and look at the cool stuff you can have! see respec thingers! awesome huh? come on serve meeee"
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Gamertag: Clonedzero
#20GBALoserPosted 2/2/2013 5:16:55 PM
zerobobo posted...

theres a big difference between doing something because you want to do it and it just happens to be the same thing he wants. and agreeing to give him your soul and serve him faithfully. huge difference really.

miraak swore to serve him in exchange for power, then he was backing out of the deal. you show up, you're a solution to the miraak problem for herma mora, so he lets you play with his books to beat miraak, then at the end he goes "heyyyy if you take miraaks place i'll give you goodies".

he's making the pitch at the end, saying "serve me and look at the cool stuff you can have! see respec thingers! awesome huh? come on serve meeee"


He says, "Continue to serve me, and you'll be rewarded. Don't, and your fate will be the same as Miraak's." And honestly, Herma-Mora could have dealt with Miraak at any point he wanted to; he was just waiting for you to take his place so he could still have a dragonborn under his control.

You can still defy him, if you want. It ain't gonna end well for you if you do, though. That's the point Mora was trying to get across. Anyone can defy a Daedra, even those whose souls are bound to them. Just don't expect it to end in your favor if you double-cross them.
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Every once in a while I realize the human race may be worth saving. Of course, then I come back here, but still, those are good moments. -Readyman