Awesome video on the dumbing down of TES games

#111The_Viking_SwanPosted 2/7/2013 10:25:24 PM
Finally got around to watching that video...
Boo f***ing hoo, weapons and armor aren't worth as much! Wahhhh! Puzzles not being hard is laughable. If I want puzzles I'll play f***ing Portal, not a TES game.
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#112Kant_Remoob_EhtPosted 2/7/2013 10:34:53 PM
turn_based posted...
Kant_Remoob_Eht posted...
I honestly hope bethesda doesn't take the streamlining hammer to fallout 4.


I guess you haven't played 3 yet, eh?

:1


Fallout 3? I've played it and NV. They kept most of the general things, SPECIAL system, perks, traits (with NV at least). Though they did limit some things, it still felt like it had some sense of rpgness to it. I will ignore the limited map size compared to the older fallout games mainly due to how the map system was set up with them (the old ones that is).

But I wonder if fallout 4 would go back to being a perspective view game. Mainly with how awkward it seems like to use VATS in first person.
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#113JohnRyan1228Posted 2/7/2013 11:02:45 PM
The_Viking_Swan posted...
Finally got around to watching that video...
Boo f***ing hoo, weapons and armor aren't worth as much! Wahhhh! Puzzles not being hard is laughable. If I want puzzles I'll play f***ing Portal, not a TES game.


Well if they are gonna put puzzles in the game, at least have them be beyond the comprehension of my 3 year old nephew.

... He actually does solve the puzzles.
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#114kamahl25Posted 2/7/2013 11:38:01 PM
Kant_Remoob_Eht posted...
kamahl25 posted...
Kant_Remoob_Eht posted...
I honestly hope bethesda doesn't take the streamlining hammer to fallout 4.


I hope they do just so I can come to the boards and see you whine more


If they do streamline it, I assume they would first get rid of the SPECIAL system and replace it with Health, and whatever for the other two. They would merge unarmed and melee skills together, guns and energy weapons would get merged together, survival and medicine would get merged together. The perk system would change so that it isn't fully based on your level but more of your skill level. I also assume they will shove in the ability to craft your own guns, and be able to make one tier of guns straight from the beginning wether or not you have a very low guns and repair level.


And I would still have an absolute blast playing it
#115Ajd_KingPosted 2/7/2013 11:45:28 PM
They'd also probably continue with the lessening amount of dialogue but higher paid voice actors, worse quests but more of them, blander characters but better looking ones, etc.
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#116Governator00Posted 2/7/2013 11:48:04 PM
I agree with most of his point but if the loot system in Skyrim was like Morrowind then it would be 10X better and there wouldn't be so much complaining I think. That's what we need next game, remove OP crafting and let us explore for useful stuff.
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#117MorvoniPosted 2/8/2013 12:46:13 AM
Dumbing Down and Streamlining can often both be applied in regards to the changes.

For instance, take the inability to kill Jarl Balgruf.

Dumbing Down: You've removed the choice and thereby the consequence of killing an essential NPC. It's dumbed down because since the choice has been removed, you can't suffer the consequences. He (or someone) is always going to be available to start you on the path to the MQ.

Streamlining: Why even have the ability to kill Jarl Balgruf when the ultimate goal of the game/quest, is to clear the game/quest. Same for many of the other essentials.

What it comes down to is a matter of the world Bethesda used to present to us VS. the world they now present to us.

In the past, TES was supposed to be a world where everyone could die, where there were severe consequences for your actions, where your deeds and behavior truly had an impact on how people interacted with you, and where NPC's had the allusion of really having their own agenda's, feelings, alliances, and goals.

The new TES, is directed towards the player simply being able accomplish everything in game as long as they choose to do so. NPC's seem to be there only to give you quests and provide for your character. Sure they have their own agenda's, but those agenda's have less depth, AND (aside from a few exceptions) they always seem to have a place for you in their agenda's no matter who you are affiliated with or what you've done.

It's both dumbed down and streamlined.

As far as freedom goes. That too goes both ways. I couldn't join every guild under the sun in old TES, but I could kill anyone I chose to. New TES, I can become anything the game has the ability to offer, leader of any guild, but I can't kill certain people.

I think the real heart of the matter here for us gamers is preference. Which style of TES do you prefer?

I personally prefer the old TES, but after giving it some thought, I really can't comment on if the old TES is better or not. It's simply a matter of preference and opinion.

I like stats (str/int), I like the old class system, I like the spell-maker, I like being required to think harder, etc... But I like Skyrim too. I prefer the former TES, but the latter is still fun. Different, but very fun.

What's ultimately sad, is if it's true about what the guy was saying in regards to money and casual gamers. If all these changes were truly brought about because of either the need or want for money, the need or want to ensure that children can beat the game. If those things are true and that is what is guiding them, then it is unlikely that we will ever see a return to the old TES.

Many seem to believe that old TES is just old school and Skyrim is TES re-evaluted. But the truth is...No game ever did it like old TES. It was always a gem without equal. Skyrim, though fun, feels like a giving in to the pressures of modern gaming, like it's following a recipe of what sells. Old TES didn't sacrifice anything for money or casuals. It was the game they wanted to make. Not saying that Skyrim isn't, I'm sure it is to some degree, but it also carries that feeling of caving in under pressure to me.
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#118KotomineKireiPosted 2/8/2013 1:33:42 AM
Morvoni posted...
Streamlining: Why even have the ability to kill Jarl Balgruf when the ultimate goal of the game/quest, is to clear the game/quest. Same for many of the other essentials.


What's the point in playing a role-playing game if you can't do what you want?
If you want your character to be an evil and powerful Dragonborn that relies on no one's help, you can't because of the fact that instead of providing a workaround for you, if you were to kill Balgruuf, they take the easy way and make him essential.

They dumbed-down the series so that gamers, that are being introduced to TES via Skyrim, aren't able to fail quests just because they can't differentiate between ally and foe or don't know how to use the save system.
However, I digress, it's not so much their fault as Bethesda's for going with crowd, like most developers and publishers are doing, and they are being the type that does stupid things just to blend in.

Really, I think in cases like this, they should just make a new series.
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#119GriffRobertsPosted 2/8/2013 2:13:33 AM
Making your games accessible to the widest possible audience isn't "casualization", it's just plain good game design. Bethesda's not some indie developer filling a super specific niche here.

It's funny how people decry essential NPCs, but not a word is said about "Key Required" locked doors and other inaccessible areas, even though they exist for the same reason; so that the player doesn't f*** up quests by jumping the gun. Things get hairy when I decide to just up and kill Ancano the moment I meet him; it's a lot of work rewriting the entire questline or coming up with a bunch of back door type solutions, just to give the player the freedom to kill anyone that looks at them the wrong way.

Sure, I could just fail the entire questline, but the repercussions of that aren't immediate, and don't necessarily have anything to do with Ancano, other than giving me a reason to go to Labyrinthian or whatever. At least now when I kill an NPC, I know that their importance doesn't extend past their own meager existence.

And then you've got other encounters, like dragon attacks. Essential NPCs seemed like a fine solution, since it already solves the above problem, it's already something Bethesda does, and it prevents things happening that screw the player, and are out of the player's control. Sure, they could make all NPCs essential except by the player's hands, but doesn't that just enforce the "world revolves around the player" feeling that isn't so warmly received? Hell, in this case it almost seems like we need more essential NPCs, with how they love to go barefisted against dragons and vampires. It wouldn't be as much of a problem if merchants and the like were actually replaced like they talked about pre-release.
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I put "casual" in quotes because I think these gamer labels are outright stupid. I also left out the part where I called you all entitled babies. =D
#120WheezinEdPosted 2/8/2013 2:59:58 AM
From: GriffRoberts | #119
Things get hairy when I decide to just up and kill Ancano the moment I meet him; it's a lot of work rewriting the entire questline or coming up with a bunch of back door type solutions, just to give the player the freedom to kill anyone that looks at them the wrong way.

Sure, I could just fail the entire questline, but the repercussions of that aren't immediate, and don't necessarily have anything to do with Ancano, other than giving me a reason to go to Labyrinthian or whatever. At least now when I kill an NPC, I know that their importance doesn't extend past their own meager existence.


OH NO! There are unforeseen consequences to recklessly killing people! What terrible game design!
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