Awesome video on the dumbing down of TES games

#141JohnRyan1228Posted 2/8/2013 10:07:16 PM
Kant_Remoob_Eht posted...
GriffRoberts posted...
From: Kant_Remoob_Eht | #127
Overly Labyrinth like dungeons? I would rather like having those.


You say that now, but... no. There's nothing fun about aimlessly wandering a giant dungeon for up to hours on end. Mazes sounds cool for video games, but they're almost never well received. For instance, I had to go through a dungeon to find a painting; after wandering around for about 45 minutes, I caved and looked it up in a guide. Lo and behold, I was exploring a gigantic section of the dungeon that literally has nothing to do with the location of the painting. Or anything.


Maybe, but it would be better than walking into a cave and it has very little areas to explore.


Skyrim's dungeons are too linear, but if you played daggerfall you would know that there is a limit on the other direction 2
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#142GriffRobertsPosted 2/8/2013 10:17:08 PM
From: Kant_Remoob_Eht | #140
Maybe, but it would be better than walking into a cave and it has very little areas to explore.


I wouldn't say "better", not by a longshot, but I get where you're coming from. IMO, in terms of non-linearity (because that's totally a word), I'd say Oblivion had the best dungeons. Of course, in terms of just design, I'd take Skyrim's linear dungeons any day. Besides, not every dungeon needs to be a gigantic and complex network of tunnels, traps, and treasure. Sometimes a cave is just a cave, and small dungeons are better suited for minor/radiant quests anyway. Sometimes you just need a quickie.

(Quest markers! I don't think written directions add anything beyond immersion and a sort of "artificial" challenge; no, checking your map/journal every few minutes to remind yourself of the directions and make sure you're going the right direction isn't actually more difficult, and IMO it makes perfect sense from an immersion standpoint for the NPC to point out a location on your map and say "figure it out, hero". Having an arrow on your HUD at that point is simple convenience, same as having your health bar or a compass in general. Finding the quest object shouldn't be hard, unless that's specifically meant to be a challenge for that part of the quest.)
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#143XanderRingePosted 2/8/2013 11:12:08 PM
I only read the first fifty posts, so I am not sure if someone else said this, but a good middle ground for the invincible NPCs problem is just simply make more important characters harder to kill. I pickpocketed a Greybeard once and was slaughtered by an onslaught of Shouts from two or three different Greybeards.

It should be this way for all these kinds of characters. The leader of a Guild has to be strong. The strongest. The PC shouldn't be able to kill them early in their game. And this shouldn't be force fed on the player by making them unkillable, just make them strong as they should be.

The Greybeards were some of the only powerful people in Skyrim. Everyone else was easily killed by a mudcrab or a wolf. That's just silly.

For the quest markers, I for one think Dragon's Dogma has started down the right path with this issue. There are some quests where you are told to talk to the townspeople and aren't given any quest markers and are forced to actually ask around to get information. Obviously, they haven't perfected it, but like I said, I think they are headed down the right path. It's a long way to go, though.

DISCLAIMER: I only ever dabbled in Morrowind and Oblivion. I never could get sucked in enough to play more than a few hours in. Therefore, there is most definitely information I should have for this discussion that I regrettably do not. My apologies.
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#144seth4461Posted 2/9/2013 4:25:44 AM
You know what I hate? Being forced to do quests that I don't want to do to do other quests. Example: If I say screw it to Riverwood and head straight to Solitude to join up with legion as Hadvar suggests, I can start the civil war quest lines and the like. But, if I want to continue the quest line to end that civil war I'm forced to start the main quest.

Why should I? Perhaps I don't want to have my Dunmer Battlemage(the character I was using when I discovered this) be the Dovahkiin. I just wanted to kill Ulfric so I could dead thrall him into my undead shouting minion. But nope, I'm forced to go through to at least where the greybeards finish the Dovahkiin's initial training all because apparently Balgruff is to worried about what the Dragonborn needs to do.

Yes a dragon attack is sort of a big deal, but a war at the city gates is just as big a deal and one of them has far larger ramifications to the future of Skyrim. I also hate essential NPCs obviously, since this wouldn't be a problem if I could just murder Ulfric in the first place. Heck save a lot of hassle get to skip all the obnoxiously boring "battles" the war offers.

After that back stabbing and double crossing factions and the general lack of choices in quests would be right up their. From being unable to tell the thieves guild to screw off to refusing to be tricked into giving my soul to Nocturnal in exchange for Mercer Frey. (Just shows that Karliah lies to you anyway what with her "You need power from becoming a Nightingale to stand a chance" only to be told after selling your soul "Sorry Nocturnal is powerless until the Key is returned to the Sephulcur.")

Some quests are still around that let do a little more choice(Dark Brotherhood be a notable example) And I don't mind minor quests being set in stone but major things like the above example with the thieves guild irk me. Their simply is no reason that I can't see Mercer's betrayal coming and choose to end him, skipping his dealings with the rest of the guild other then laziness( they would need to program alternate quests after word so you could restore the guild since Karliah still needs to clear her name [They are after all willing to read Karliah's "Translation" of Gallus' Journal after all. As suspect as that is, Brynjolf would probably still be idiotic enough for such even after Mercer's death which would still lead the discovery of the empty vault, the recovery of the stolen plans, and the execution of Gallus' final heist.] Then Karliah could just offer you the Choice of becoming a Nightingale which you could turn down.)

Yes, that's a bit more work though not so much when you consider the scope of the game anyway and thus I attribute laziness. Or they are to concerned with only seeing through the quest line is their asininely linear way, which is of itself dumbing down since they are purposely limiting the player's choices to streamline(because such things are not mutually exclusive)

Man, that was a long rant. Hope someone actually reads it, heh.
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#145The_Ivory_ManPosted 2/9/2013 6:40:32 AM
XanderRinge posted...
I only read the first fifty posts, so I am not sure if someone else said this, but a good middle ground for the invincible NPCs problem is just simply make more important characters harder to kill. I pickpocketed a Greybeard once and was slaughtered by an onslaught of Shouts from two or three different Greybeards.

It should be this way for all these kinds of characters. The leader of a Guild has to be strong. The strongest. The PC shouldn't be able to kill them early in their game. And this shouldn't be force fed on the player by making them unkillable, just make them strong as they should be.

The Greybeards were some of the only powerful people in Skyrim. Everyone else was easily killed by a mudcrab or a wolf. That's just silly.

For the quest markers, I for one think Dragon's Dogma has started down the right path with this issue. There are some quests where you are told to talk to the townspeople and aren't given any quest markers and are forced to actually ask around to get information. Obviously, they haven't perfected it, but like I said, I think they are headed down the right path. It's a long way to go, though.

DISCLAIMER: I only ever dabbled in Morrowind and Oblivion. I never could get sucked in enough to play more than a few hours in. Therefore, there is most definitely information I should have for this discussion that I regrettably do not. My apologies.


People respawn in Dragon's Dogma
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#146XanderRingePosted 2/9/2013 8:07:49 AM
The_Ivory_Man posted...
People respawn in Dragon's Dogma


I'm assuming you didn't read my full post, or were only halfway paying attention when you read it, because nothing I said about the NPCs had anything to with whether you could kill them or not.
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#147turn_basedPosted 2/9/2013 8:34:57 AM
Well done video. Good attitude, no bile.

He has his opinions but it looks like he came by'em honestly, and honestly, I tend to agree with his first three points.

I'm an adult, I understand consequences, I live with them because I make decisions. I don't revert back to my adolescence when I pick up a controller.

Side note: No one has mentioned Fable's toggle option to get hostile on friendlies. Seems simple enough.
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#148Fade_ChokesPosted 2/9/2013 10:49:08 AM
zerobobo posted...
they streamlined it.
its not dumbed down.

basically i tune out anytime anyone goes "rah rah they dumbed this down!" because very rarely do they dumb anything down.


Guilds got dumbed down without requirements and advancement rules, quest got dumbed down with immortal NPCs and tons of waypoints. Everything else got removed for dumb reasons.

Skyrim has like half the weapons and enemy types of morrowind, that's just truth.
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#149Kant_Remoob_EhtPosted 2/9/2013 10:53:43 AM(edited)
JohnRyan1228 posted...
Kant_Remoob_Eht posted...
GriffRoberts posted...
From: Kant_Remoob_Eht | #127
Overly Labyrinth like dungeons? I would rather like having those.


You say that now, but... no. There's nothing fun about aimlessly wandering a giant dungeon for up to hours on end. Mazes sounds cool for video games, but they're almost never well received. For instance, I had to go through a dungeon to find a painting; after wandering around for about 45 minutes, I caved and looked it up in a guide. Lo and behold, I was exploring a gigantic section of the dungeon that literally has nothing to do with the location of the painting. Or anything.


Maybe, but it would be better than walking into a cave and it has very little areas to explore.


Skyrim's dungeons are too linear, but if you played daggerfall you would know that there is a limit on the other direction 2


True.

But, couldn't there be a nice medium between the two? Not to linear/small, but also not to convoluted/large. I have seen some gameplay vids on daggerfall.... that map for some of the dungeons on there (size wise) put most of the ones in the current games to shame (though the newest ones do have more aesthetic things in the dungeons so it isn't as empty).
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#150turn_basedPosted 2/9/2013 10:59:29 AM
Why did they remove the concept of teleportation?

Why don't the 8+1 care anymore about my morality or demand a tribute for their blessings?

Why are repair hammers a decoration now?

If it seems a dumb thing to do, then maybe...

I for one miss feather and disentrigate spells and being ignored by deity cause I was a goooood 'listener.'
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