Awesome video on the dumbing down of TES games

#21Belgarion05(Topic Creator)Posted 2/6/2013 7:03:05 PM
95_Eclipse posted...
I actually listened to the whole thing, and I agree with him almost entirely.

And anyone who says the games havn't been dumbed down is a blatant idiot or has never played the older games.


Thank you.

Seriously, if people think this game isn't dumbed-down at all, then they haven't been in a single Nordic ruin and completed a "puzzle."

I had a problem with one puzzle in this game. Just one. It was when I was first starting the game and I was in Bleak Falls Barrow. The very first puzzle most people come across. The puzzle is actually so simplistically stupid that it took me time to figure out how stupid it was. This would be brilliant, except that every puzzle is like that first one.
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"You don't have to burn books to destroy a culture. Just get people to stop reading them." - Ray Bradbury
#22zeroboboPosted 2/6/2013 7:06:15 PM
kill_distroy posted...
zerobobo posted...
JohnRyan1228 posted...
zerobobo posted...
they streamlined it.
its not dumbed down.

basically i tune out anytime anyone goes "rah rah they dumbed this down!" because very rarely do they dumb anything down.


Objectively, is making practically half the npcs unkillable not "dumbing it down?" There is generally a fine line between streamlining and dumbing down, and I generally give Beth the benefit of the doubt, but the line isn't fine with that


thats not dumbing it down.
realistically i'd hope most players dont run around killing random NPCs for the hell of it. i dont attack anyone unless i have a reason to. the whole essential NPC thing, id ont really have a problem with as ive never tried to kill an essential NPC (aside from the civil war camp captains).

especially in a game where there are random dragons that swoop down and can attack at random, its a bit of a safety net to prevent quests from being broken without your knowledge.

i really have no sympathy for people going "omg its so casual" when they're running around murdering random NPCs for the hell of it.


Is a Yes/No option for killing essential NPCs in the options menu too much to ask?


no, not really, but its a pretty pointless little toggle for a small amount of people who do such stuff. nit picking cus you're super mad you can't kill maven black-briar is a bit silly. i mean, who really cares?

the only real point i can agree with in that dumb video is the quest objectives thing with the arrow.
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Gamertag: Clonedzero
#23JohnRyan1228Posted 2/6/2013 7:07:42 PM
zerobobo posted...
kill_distroy posted...
zerobobo posted...
JohnRyan1228 posted...
zerobobo posted...
they streamlined it.
its not dumbed down.

basically i tune out anytime anyone goes "rah rah they dumbed this down!" because very rarely do they dumb anything down.


Objectively, is making practically half the npcs unkillable not "dumbing it down?" There is generally a fine line between streamlining and dumbing down, and I generally give Beth the benefit of the doubt, but the line isn't fine with that


thats not dumbing it down.
realistically i'd hope most players dont run around killing random NPCs for the hell of it. i dont attack anyone unless i have a reason to. the whole essential NPC thing, id ont really have a problem with as ive never tried to kill an essential NPC (aside from the civil war camp captains).

especially in a game where there are random dragons that swoop down and can attack at random, its a bit of a safety net to prevent quests from being broken without your knowledge.

i really have no sympathy for people going "omg its so casual" when they're running around murdering random NPCs for the hell of it.


Is a Yes/No option for killing essential NPCs in the options menu too much to ask?


no, not really, but its a pretty pointless little toggle for a small amount of people who do such stuff. nit picking cus you're super mad you can't kill maven black-briar is a bit silly. i mean, who really cares?

the only real point i can agree with in that dumb video is the quest objectives thing with the arrow.


I don't think the number of people is as small as you think it is
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If I ever cared about what you had to say, I'd stick a shotgun in my mouth and pull the trigger with my toes.
#24Belgarion05(Topic Creator)Posted 2/6/2013 7:10:18 PM
zerobobo posted...
Belgarion05 posted...
I think people aren't watching the video. And then commenting. Seriously, you should join Congress. You'd fit in.

- Quest markers is not streamlining
- Lack of conversation options is not streamlining
- Removing consequences from your actions is not streamlining


Streamlining when you take Morrowind's goofy stat-based 2mph starting run speed and Atheltics and turn it into Skyrim's jog.


ive seen the video before.

the tool spends close to 5 minutes whining about saviors hides price not being as high as it was in morrowind. thats ridiculous nitpicking.

the lack of conversation options is 100% due to the inclusion of voice acting. expecting the same level of dialogue as a mostly text based game such as morrowind in a fully voiced game like skyrim is just mind bogglingly stupid, unrealistic and ignorant.
rather than simply writing out the dialogue and dialogue options and then having an editor go over them and then plugging them into the game.

the process in modern games would be writer- editor - voice coach - voice actor - audio specialists - sound compression, ect. ect. ect.
doing a voiced conversation in a game is much more time, money and manpower costing than a simple text conversation.

the fact you cannot recognize this makes me not take you seriously.


Stand up. Look down at your seat. See if there is a sharp object that is lodged in and pointing straight up. Judging from your post, it should be at least the size of a cucumber. If nothing is there, proceed to the bathroom and identify if it is firmly lodged in your butt.

I am well aware that voice acting is the reason we have fewer dialogue choices. My post that you quoted was in response to people claiming that the game isn't dumbed down, just streamlined. I was giving examples of dumbing-down to show the difference between dumbing-down and streamlining. The lack of conversation options does dumb down the game and reduces it's depth, no matter what the reason is. I don't even necessarily think it's a bad thing, but it is dumbing-down.
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"You don't have to burn books to destroy a culture. Just get people to stop reading them." - Ray Bradbury
#25lorddrago88Posted 2/6/2013 7:12:20 PM(edited)
Quest markers are due to NPCs having a schedule. 90% of RPGs have boring, static NPCs that stand in one place all day. Feels very "plastic".

Items are reduced in monetary value so you don't break the game with hordes of money (which you could do in Morrowind and gain a dozen free levels ala Training).

Reduced dialog is due to voice acting.

NPCs are invincible so random monsters don't break quests when they swoop down and nuke a town (hint hint).

I agree with some of his points but i feel he is nitpicking too much.

Also, there are in fact some quests that you can fail or where you can "backstab" someone.
#26BitakuPosted 2/6/2013 7:13:42 PM
The_Ivory_Man posted...
Nearly everything has been improved voice actors, combat, exploration, we are just missing hand placed loot and a "KILL EVERYTHING" switch


I actually think Morrowind had better exploration, but otherwise I pretty much agree. As for the essential NPC thing, I kind of get why it's there in Oblivion and Skyrim. There's a lot of random **** that constantly goes down and kills assorted NPCs, and I'd be pretty irked if a key quest giver was slain randomly during one of the numerous vampire/dragon/misc. raids. That being said, I do think they gave the essential status to waaaaay too many npcs.
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#27JohnRyan1228Posted 2/6/2013 7:14:19 PM
Belgarion05 posted...
zerobobo posted...
Belgarion05 posted...
I think people aren't watching the video. And then commenting. Seriously, you should join Congress. You'd fit in.

- Quest markers is not streamlining
- Lack of conversation options is not streamlining
- Removing consequences from your actions is not streamlining


Streamlining when you take Morrowind's goofy stat-based 2mph starting run speed and Atheltics and turn it into Skyrim's jog.


ive seen the video before.

the tool spends close to 5 minutes whining about saviors hides price not being as high as it was in morrowind. thats ridiculous nitpicking.

the lack of conversation options is 100% due to the inclusion of voice acting. expecting the same level of dialogue as a mostly text based game such as morrowind in a fully voiced game like skyrim is just mind bogglingly stupid, unrealistic and ignorant.
rather than simply writing out the dialogue and dialogue options and then having an editor go over them and then plugging them into the game.

the process in modern games would be writer- editor - voice coach - voice actor - audio specialists - sound compression, ect. ect. ect.
doing a voiced conversation in a game is much more time, money and manpower costing than a simple text conversation.

the fact you cannot recognize this makes me not take you seriously.


Stand up. Look down at your seat. See if there is a sharp object that is lodged in and pointing straight up. Judging from your post, it should be at least the size of a cucumber. If nothing is there, proceed to the bathroom and identify if it is firmly lodged in your butt.


Every single noun and verb in this statement totally arouses me.
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If I ever cared about what you had to say, I'd stick a shotgun in my mouth and pull the trigger with my toes.
#28JohnRyan1228Posted 2/6/2013 7:17:59 PM
Bitaku posted...
The_Ivory_Man posted...
Nearly everything has been improved voice actors, combat, exploration, we are just missing hand placed loot and a "KILL EVERYTHING" switch


I actually think Morrowind had better exploration, but otherwise I pretty much agree. As for the essential NPC thing, I kind of get why it's there in Oblivion and Skyrim. There's a lot of random **** that constantly goes down and kills assorted NPCs, and I'd be pretty irked if a key quest giver was slain randomly during one of the numerous vampire/dragon/misc. raids. That being said, I do think they gave the essential status to waaaaay too many npcs.


So just make YOU the only person who can kill an essential
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If I ever cared about what you had to say, I'd stick a shotgun in my mouth and pull the trigger with my toes.
#29zeroboboPosted 2/6/2013 7:18:23 PM
also anyone who gets upset over a game becoming more mainstream, streamlined or "casualized" sorta has to remember that bethesda makes games to make a profit.

they aren't making TES games cus they love you and wanna make a game you'll love. they want to make a game that lots of people will buy and enjoy so they will continue buying their games.

i mean the amount of money it costs to develop big games these days we should count ourselves lucky that bethesda even made skyrim.

my response to the video is.

1.) yes, the quest objectives and journal system were simplified. the hand holdy nature of the quest arrow is a bit mindless but it makes sense. sure i'd like it to return to some middle ground, but im not upset over it.

2.) consquences, yeah i'd love some more, but again. easier to write and record dialogue and options for a text based game, so the limiting factor of this makes it understandable, but i think they can do better in the future, and i think they will.

3.) dialogue. well its fine in skyrim. significantly better than it was in oblivion. morrowind was a text based game so its not really fair or intelligent to compare them, as development costs for voice acting are significantly higher. before you say it, no the game should not return to text.

4.) costs on items. shut up with your whiney nitpicking crap.

5.) before i forget, the puzzles in skyrim are pretty simple, but then again the puzzles in morrowind and oblivion were piss easy too so dont act like they were hard or clever.
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Gamertag: Clonedzero
#30lorddrago88Posted 2/6/2013 7:19:30 PM
I hated exploring in Morrowind. Moving 0.5 MPH was not fun.

And then I would sell stuff to Creeper and train and break the game. Items in Morrowind ALSO quickly became junk.