Awesome video on the dumbing down of TES games

#71Kant_Remoob_EhtPosted 2/7/2013 2:15:03 AM
KotomineKirei posted...
zerobobo posted...
they streamlined it.
its not dumbed down.

basically i tune out anytime anyone goes "rah rah they dumbed this down!" because very rarely do they dumb anything down.


"dumb down" and "streamline" are both correct, as they both can mean to simplify something(albeit one can be more insulting to those who only buy the game after it is simplified)

In the case of TES, "dumb down" seems to be more appropriate.
They removed the attributes(a staple of most RPGs), removed spell creation, and reduced the amount of spell, armor, and weapon types, had enemies level with you, etc.

There's more, but I can't recall currently.

Point is, they removed these because the audience they are aiming for now, most likely, are confused by:
Stats
(What do Strength, Intelligence, Personality, etc. do?? It's too confusing!!)
Variety
(There's so many, which do I choose!? I just want to beat things up!)
Difficulty
(*level 1 fighting level 20*He won't die!! This game must be broken!!)

In my opinion, they are aiming for Call of Duty players, but if they continue doing so, we who would want games like Morrowind, Oblivion, Fallout, etc. will be left in the dirt, because nearly everyone else is doing it too.


With the elder scrolls, I do agree with the loss of stats and the lack of spell creation. Though I do understand the spell creation likely got done away with due to the glitchness that could be had with it (will miss making my character a god with it).

Armor type wise there is a semi lack of them, but it would be more of a lack of variety in different styles for each of the armor types. The same could be said for the weapons also. While the spells have most of the generic varieties, they lack in uniqueness for the various schools of magic.

And making enemies match your levels sort of works, but it does seem weird when everything is your level and because of that they gain stronger weapons and the like.... like when bandits somehow gain dwarven armor (though they handled it slightly better in skyrim). If enemies were better situated on the map then fixed level enemies could work in the quicker paced/leveling up TES game of today.

I wouldn't really say it is cods fault for the casualization of games today, any popular game will have bits and pieces copied from it and put into other games.
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#72zeroboboPosted 2/7/2013 2:19:09 AM
KotomineKirei posted...
zerobobo posted...
they streamlined it.
its not dumbed down.

basically i tune out anytime anyone goes "rah rah they dumbed this down!" because very rarely do they dumb anything down.


"dumb down" and "streamline" are both correct, as they both can mean to simplify something(albeit one can be more insulting to those who only buy the game after it is simplified)

In the case of TES, "dumb down" seems to be more appropriate.
They removed the attributes(a staple of most RPGs), removed spell creation, and reduced the amount of spell, armor, and weapon types, had enemies level with you, etc.

There's more, but I can't recall currently.

Point is, they removed these because the audience they are aiming for now, most likely, are confused by:
Stats
(What do Strength, Intelligence, Personality, etc. do?? It's too confusing!!)
Variety
(There's so many, which do I choose!? I just want to beat things up!)
Difficulty
(*level 1 fighting level 20*He won't die!! This game must be broken!!)

In my opinion, they are aiming for Call of Duty players, but if they continue doing so, we who would want games like Morrowind, Oblivion, Fallout, etc. will be left in the dirt, because nearly everyone else is doing it too.


no. they are not aiming for the Call of Duty players. TES is an RPG franchise. COD is a shooter franchise. yes there is overlap where people play both genres but they are different demographics.

stats. well in TES they've usually been pretty pointless. they dont really have much significance and were easly boosted. losing them did nothing to hinder the enjoyment of the game unless you're a crazy person.

the change to the pacing of the game, with the well done level scaling in skyrim is good game design. the hand placed enemies of wide ranging levels is bad pacing for an OPEN WORLD GAME. it narrows your options and limits freedom, the opposite of what the game is supposed to be.

Oblivion is a mess of overly complex (not hard to understand mind you), just a pain in the ass, stats and leveling systems a god awful level scaling system. Fallout, i assume you mean the newer 360 games, are super streamlined compared to the origional so you listing that as a precious "hardcore game" is laughable.

basically, stop whining you have no idea what you're talking about. your bandwagon hatred of popular games makes you look petty.

and basic captialism, if there is a market for it and profit to be made, someone will make it and sell it. so dont worry buddy.

big games like CoD, TES, halo, ect. are fantastic for the gaming industry because it mainstreams it.

also, morrowind was not that good, take off your damn nostalgia glasses people, i played the hell out of it and i loved it, but damn its not this crazy holy grail of RPGs like so many people seem to think it is.
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Gamertag: Clonedzero
#73SoulOfFaythPosted 2/7/2013 2:20:31 AM
Oh boohoo. If you have such a problem with the game you're welcome to play something else. All this whining about dumbing down is just a way for pretentious nerds to try and feel smart. Some features were removed, others were added. But if after more than a year you're still enough into a game to play it and hang around on the boards you should just shut your mouth about how bad this game is. No one will think you're cool so you can just stop it.
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The mind is like a parachute: it only works when it's open
#74VrrestoPosted 2/7/2013 8:04:06 AM(edited)
zerobobo posted...

the change to the pacing of the game, with the well done level scaling in skyrim is good game design. the hand placed enemies of wide ranging levels is bad pacing for an OPEN WORLD GAME. it narrows your options and limits freedom, the opposite of what the game is supposed to be.


It also makes the game incredibly shallow. I would say that hurts the open world nature of the game. What's the point of exploring Dungeon #67 if it just has generic baddies and loot scaled to your level? There are no good items to discover, no challenging enemies, nothing to fear. If every choice you make leads to the same results your "freedom" is completely meaningless.

Good pacing is important for linear story-based games, not for open world games. Being able to mindlessly grind through the game without any thought - because consequences would further limit your options - for the sake of pacing is exactly what dumbing down is.
#75VrrestoPosted 2/7/2013 8:03:18 AM
[This message was deleted at the request of the original poster]
#76sunbro1Posted 2/7/2013 9:16:56 AM
Saying that attributes did nothing pretty much proves you really don't understand the main point of an rpg
#77MastadiPosted 2/7/2013 9:25:03 AM
SoulOfFayth posted...
Oh boohoo. If you have such a problem with the game you're welcome to play something else. All this whining about dumbing down is just a way for pretentious nerds to try and feel smart. Some features were removed, others were added. But if after more than a year you're still enough into a game to play it and hang around on the boards you should just shut your mouth about how bad this game is. No one will think you're cool so you can just stop it.


Or maybe they want to have experience reminiscent of the previous entries of the franchise, with all the improvements the progress of technology should provide?

It's not just about features but about the game design itself. If you, even after watching the video TC posted or looking at numerous other arguments made, think the series wasn't dumbed down and it's just 'nerds' trying to feel 'smart' then you're obviously part of the problem.

There's nothing wrong with casual games and playing them doesn't mean you are less intelligent than those who play hardcore games. It's more about attitude rather than smarts - casual games are made for players who simply do not spend much time gaming, and/or do not engage with the game world as much as a hardcore gamer would. And that's perfectly fine, not everybody who plays games seeks deep, interesting experiences - some people just want to get on for half an hour and slay dragons and that's absolutely fine.

The issue arises when franchises - and even entire genres - drop what made them great and interesting in the first place in favour of what would attract the most players in a modern market. This is evident with series like Elder Scrolls and majority of FPS games, as more and more casual gamers have consoles nowadays, making it profitable to cater to those markets. This leaves the hardcore players with fewer and fewer games to play which would actually interest them at all, and it can be simply painful to see a once loved franchise turn into something completely different in the name of money.
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I would use a nude male mod with equipable underwear just so I can enchant a pair of magical boxers. - Nexus_Nocturnal.
#78kamahl25Posted 2/7/2013 9:37:51 AM
It must be exhausting to hate a game so much yet play it all the time
#79Justin2KrelianPosted 2/7/2013 9:40:46 AM
Belgarion05 posted...

- Lack of conversation options is not streamlining



I didn't watch the video yet, but Skyrim's dialogue system >> Morrowind's. I'll take "I work for Belethor. At the General Goods store" over "Vivec is a big place, even us residents get lost sometimes" said by a dozen characters any day.
#80sunbro1Posted 2/7/2013 9:44:56 AM
kamahl25 posted...
It must be exhausting to hate a game so much yet play it all the time


Hate a game = acknowledging the fact that it has stupid design choices