The Dwemer were heartless monsters...

#31Gamer-ChrisPosted 2/16/2013 3:39:46 PM
dedrick123 posted...
Oni_Tatsujin posted...
After the ancient Nords came to Tamriel, lead by Ysgramor, they set to eradicating the local Falmer. At the time, Falmer were proper and intelligent surface Elves, just like any Bosmer or Dunmer or Altmer.

The raw strength of the invading Nords proved too strong for the unprepared Falmer of Skyrim, so they sought refuge with their elven cousins, the Dwemer, in their underground strongholds.

Little did they know the Dwemer had something terrible in mind for them... They fed the Falmer toxic mushrooms that blinded their eyes and muddled their brains, devolving the entire race into animal-like cave monsters. Think about it, the Falmer we fight in this game have white souls, trappable in any old soul gem. The Dwemer gave the Falmer a far worse fate than the Nords would have. To utterly destroy their sentience, their intelligence, their lives...

But why would they do this, you ask?

Convenience. Dwemer machines run on Soul Gems.

No wonder they up-and-vanished. That, combined with the fact they were trying to steal the power of a God (Lorkhan), would anger any deity with their finger on the "blow up dwarves" button.


huh? I thought Dwemer used them as slaves and pushed them underground. Being underground w/o any sunlight for a crap load of years robbed them of their eyesights,but increase their smell and hearing senses (in other words they evolved).

But I might be wrong.

Also, isn't falmers Snow-elves?


The Dwemer offered them shelter and safety from the Atmorans (Nords). There are mixed accounts, but supposedly the Snow Elves (Falmer) agreed to drink toxins that turned them blind in exchange for the safety the Dwemer would provide them with. Other accounts say the Dwemer forced the Snow Elves to drink the toxins. Either way, the were blinded and used as slaves to the point were they devolved into what they are now, which is just short of monsters.
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#32N1ghtm4reW0lfPosted 2/16/2013 3:42:31 PM
Oni_Tatsujin posted...
After the ancient Nords came to Tamriel, lead by Ysgramor, they set to eradicating the local Falmer.


IIRC, the Falmer attacked the Nords first.
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#33dkolb87Posted 2/16/2013 3:42:45 PM


huh? I thought Dwemer used them as slaves and pushed them underground. Being underground w/o any sunlight for a crap load of years robbed them of their eyesights,but increase their smell and hearing senses (in other words they evolved).

But I might be wrong.

Also, isn't falmers Snow-elves?


There is some consensus from the books you find that the glowing mushrooms you find in their caves contributed to their blindness.
The snow elf(yes to your second question) in dawnguard seems to corroborate this information but also seems to hint at something much deeper. He calls the Falmer the Betrayed. It is assumed he means betrayed by the Dwemer but it could also mean they betrayed their own culture. One thing for sure they did not evolve but rather devolved.

Also the nature behind the disappearance of the Dwemer is still unknown. Those positing that they became Gods/higher forms of life have no more proof than that they accidentally transported themselves to the lair of Molag Bal.
#34RebelElite791Posted 2/16/2013 5:48:31 PM
dkolb87 posted...

Also the nature behind the disappearance of the Dwemer is still unknown. Those positing that they became Gods/higher forms of life have no more proof than that they accidentally transported themselves to the lair of Molag Bal.


No it isn't. Jesus Christ, stop posting if you don't know what you're talking about.

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/final-report-trebonius

Read when the site is back up.

From Skeleton Man's interview:
Xal, a Human Maruhkati, Port Telvanis:
Ah. I will tell you the truth, because you will believe none of it. The Brass God is Anumidum, the Prime Gestalt. He is also called the divine skin. He was meant to be used many times by our kind to transcend the Gray Maybe.

The first to see him was the Shop Foremer, Kagrenac of Vvardenfell, the wisest of the tonal architects [Mechanists - MN] Do not think as others do that Kagrenac created the Anumidum for petty motivations, such as a refutation of the gods. Kagrenac was devoted to his people, and the Dwarves, despite what you may have read, were a pious lot-he would not have sacrificed so many of their golden souls to create Anumidum's metal body if it were all in the name of grand theater. Kagrenac had even built the tools needed to construct a Mantella, the Crux of Transcendence. But, by then, and for a long time coming, the Doom of the Dwarves marched upon the Mountain and they were removed from this world.


Courtesy of Baladas Demnevanni:
On the Disappearance of the Dwarves
"It was unfashionable among the Dwemer to view their spirits as synthetic constructs three, four, or forty creational gradients below the divine. During the Dawn Era they researched the death of the Earth Bones, what we call now the laws of nature, dissecting the process of the sacred willing itself into the profane. I believe their mechanists and tonal architects discovered systematic regression techniques to perform the reverse -- that is, to create the sacred from the deaths of the profane."
"As the Dwemer left no corpses or traces of conflict behind, I believe that generations of ritualistic 'anti-creations' resulted in their immediate, but foreseen removal from the Mundus. They retreated behind math, behind color, behind the active principle itself. That the Dwemer vanished during a conflict with Nerevar and the Tribunal is merely coincidence."


The Dwemer sacrificed themselves en masse to reverse subgradiency (the downward flow from god to man, infinite whole to finite pieces), combining their finite souls into an infinite whole which is the golden skin of the Numidium.

An yes, Skeleton Man's is a dev inteview. Yes, Baladas is in Morrowind. Yes, MK has expressed frustration that people still say/ask this when the answer has been out for quite a while.
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#35lordgamingtonVPosted 2/16/2013 5:52:30 PM
Oni_Tatsujin posted...
After the ancient Nords came to Tamriel, lead by Ysgramor, they set to eradicating the local Falmer.

This is after the Falmer wiped out the city of Saarthal in a failed attempt to secure the Eye of Magnus. The only reason Ysgramor went to war was because the Snow Elves crime of attempted genocide and the bigger crime of Failure.
Little did they know the Dwemer had something terrible in mind for them... They fed the Falmer toxic mushrooms that blinded their eyes and muddled their brains, devolving the entire race into animal-like cave monsters. Think about it, the Falmer we fight in this game have white souls, trappable in any old soul gem. The Dwemer gave the Falmer a far worse fate than the Nords would have. To utterly destroy their sentience, their intelligence, their lives...

Incorrect. The Dwemer informed them of this nefarious scheme, as it were. When speaking with Gelebor, he reveals that the Falmer were only blinded by the shrooms. The de-evolution was caused by something totally different.
But why would they do this, you ask?

Convenience. Dwemer machines run on Soul Gems.

Assumption is incorrect and based off of the incorrect assumption previous. As for the Dwemer Machines running on soul gems, this is at best a possibility. It is believed that the soul gems power a boiler that gives the automaton its, well, life. While this is possible, this doesn't explain the lack of souls in the gems found on destroyed animonculi. Nor does it fit with the fact that some of the constructs have two or no soul gems. Also, the Falmer have greater souls. If they really were to power the automatons, then all of the soul gems would be greater.
No wonder they up-and-vanished. That, combined with the fact they were trying to steal the power of a God (Lorkhan), would anger any deity with their finger on the "blow up dwarves" button.

And the War of the First Council never happened, eh?
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#36Brenz0rPosted 2/16/2013 6:43:11 PM
That, combined with the fact they were trying to steal the power of a God (Lorkhan)...

To make a minor point, they had already tapped the power of the Heart of Lorkhan:

"And on the fields, the Tribunal and their armies watched as the Dwemer turned into dust all around them as their stolen immortality was taken away." ~Nerevar at Red Mountain

There was no trying to do anything. They had done it successfully before the battle even started.
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#37dkolb87Posted 2/16/2013 6:45:20 PM
RebelElite791 posted...
dkolb87 posted...

Also the nature behind the disappearance of the Dwemer is still unknown. Those positing that they became Gods/higher forms of life have no more proof than that they accidentally transported themselves to the lair of Molag Bal.


No it isn't. Jesus Christ, stop posting if you don't know what you're talking about.

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/final-report-trebonius

Read when the site is back up.

From Skeleton Man's interview:
Xal, a Human Maruhkati, Port Telvanis:
Ah. I will tell you the truth, because you will believe none of it. The Brass God is Anumidum, the Prime Gestalt. He is also called the divine skin. He was meant to be used many times by our kind to transcend the Gray Maybe.

The first to see him was the Shop Foremer, Kagrenac of Vvardenfell, the wisest of the tonal architects [Mechanists - MN] Do not think as others do that Kagrenac created the Anumidum for petty motivations, such as a refutation of the gods. Kagrenac was devoted to his people, and the Dwarves, despite what you may have read, were a pious lot-he would not have sacrificed so many of their golden souls to create Anumidum's metal body if it were all in the name of grand theater. Kagrenac had even built the tools needed to construct a Mantella, the Crux of Transcendence. But, by then, and for a long time coming, the Doom of the Dwarves marched upon the Mountain and they were removed from this world.


Courtesy of Baladas Demnevanni:
On the Disappearance of the Dwarves
"It was unfashionable among the Dwemer to view their spirits as synthetic constructs three, four, or forty creational gradients below the divine. During the Dawn Era they researched the death of the Earth Bones, what we call now the laws of nature, dissecting the process of the sacred willing itself into the profane. I believe their mechanists and tonal architects discovered systematic regression techniques to perform the reverse -- that is, to create the sacred from the deaths of the profane."
"As the Dwemer left no corpses or traces of conflict behind, I believe that generations of ritualistic 'anti-creations' resulted in their immediate, but foreseen removal from the Mundus. They retreated behind math, behind color, behind the active principle itself. That the Dwemer vanished during a conflict with Nerevar and the Tribunal is merely coincidence."


The Dwemer sacrificed themselves en masse to reverse subgradiency (the downward flow from god to man, infinite whole to finite pieces), combining their finite souls into an infinite whole which is the golden skin of the Numidium.

An yes, Skeleton Man's is a dev inteview. Yes, Baladas is in Morrowind. Yes, MK has expressed frustration that people still say/ask this when the answer has been out for quite a while.


If that's true they should have left it a mystery.
#38Curved_Sw0rdPosted 2/16/2013 6:52:56 PM
Elves are butts.

They all smell like poop.
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#39lalallaalalPosted 2/16/2013 7:40:17 PM
Rampagingwalrus posted...
Gamer-Chris posted...
That's a good point, and a good argument. But that isn't really slavery. A slave has no choice but to work. it's either work or be punished and/or killed. A slave has no freedom, no rights. A slave can't quit his job and choose to fend for himself. People nowadays (in modern, "civilized" nations) have freedom, rights, and a chance to decide whether or not they want to work for someone; they are not slaves.

What choice is that?
Stop working, and have their homes, cars, and everything else they "own" taken from them?
Most people rent, lease, or have their homes mortgaged.
Same with their vehicles.
People "buy" things with credit cards, which will later be repossessed, if they stop payments.
People think that they have a choice, which is why they willingly stay slaves.

They have to work, or they starve to death on the streets.
Work, or death.
Slavery, under the shiny modern illusion of freedom.


Every single person has to work to survive. It's a simple fact of life.
#40KabtheMentatPosted 2/16/2013 8:23:18 PM
From: lalallaalal | #039
Rampagingwalrus posted...
Gamer-Chris posted...
That's a good point, and a good argument. But that isn't really slavery. A slave has no choice but to work. it's either work or be punished and/or killed. A slave has no freedom, no rights. A slave can't quit his job and choose to fend for himself. People nowadays (in modern, "civilized" nations) have freedom, rights, and a chance to decide whether or not they want to work for someone; they are not slaves.

What choice is that?
Stop working, and have their homes, cars, and everything else they "own" taken from them?
Most people rent, lease, or have their homes mortgaged.
Same with their vehicles.
People "buy" things with credit cards, which will later be repossessed, if they stop payments.
People think that they have a choice, which is why they willingly stay slaves.

They have to work, or they starve to death on the streets.
Work, or death.
Slavery, under the shiny modern illusion of freedom.


Every single person has to work to survive. It's a simple fact of life.


Oh wow, someone that doesn't have their head up their own ass. Good.

He hit it on the head. Working isn't slavery. Slavery is being told what to do, regardless of how you feel about it, and doing it without pay and fear of retribution if you don't. Working at McDonalds sucks, but is hardly close to slavery. And not every hates their job. Some people love it and would probably do what they do even if they weren't making money on it. The "illusion of freedom" comes in in that you get to choose what you want to do.
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