Thalmor lore

#11Kant_Remoob_EhtPosted 2/22/2013 9:55:53 AM
Brenz0r posted...
The Aka-Tusk is not Auri-El is Akatosh is not Auri-El is the Aka-Tusk.

And no, what I just said isn't a contradiction in TES. There are many Time Dragons that are not the same but are all the same Time Dragon.


So stuff in the TES lore just leaves it open so it could be anything, yet not anything at the same time?
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GT: Boomer and Tank
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#12Brenz0rPosted 2/22/2013 10:16:16 AM
So stuff in the TES lore just leaves it open so it could be anything, yet not anything at the same time?

I'll do this in brief.

The Aedra, the Divines, and so on are all the same gods, at their core. They are the eight et'Ada who sacrificed parts of themselves to form the Mundus and specifically Nirn within it, creating the planet from pieces of their bodies. In this process, they "died" and gave way to the succeeding mortal races. They live on as essence and the planets in the sky that orbit Nirn (unlike real life, in TES everything revolves around Nirn). The mortal races are literally the result of, once you track back far enough, the et'Ada splitting apart into lots of tiny pieces of themselves and spreading out. One analogy is of a glass of water. Pour half of it into a second glass, then pour half of those two glasses into two more. Same water, different glasses, but less quantity. Note that I'm skipping over a lot of the technical details here, and the analogy isn't a perfect one, but it should serve.

What remains of the et'Ada who gave form and function to the world is dead, as I said. Corpse-gods. For another analogy, picture a screen with the silhouette framed in a light shining from behind the curtain. Blow a breeze onto that same curtain, and the silhouette ripples and changes, presenting a different image depending on the perspective of the viewer. Now, belief is a very real component of the world, as are the rules of the Mythic, the sequence of stories by which the world came to be. Ultimately, all the stories, although changed by regional and cultural variations, have the same root.

Since different perspectives of the corpse-gods are all real, depending on perspective and on the belief in them and their role in the Mythic, all of the racial divine variations are real. So you have Auri-El, the elven Time Dragon, existing alongside Alduin, the Nordic cyclic destroyer Time Dragon. Both of these exist alongside Alkosh, the Dragon-Cat of the Khajit, as well as alongside the Cyrodiilic Akatosh and other variations on the Time Dragon. You also have the Space God for another example. Lorkhan is the elven devil-demon who tricked them into losing their link with the divine plane, in Aldmeri terms. However, he is also the reason the mortal plane exists at all through his actions, so the Nords revere him as their progenitor and leader in the form of Shor. The Redguards see him as Sep, the Bretons as Sheor, the Khajit as Lorkhaj. The Chimer viewed Lorkhan as a beneficial force, particularly so given their strong Padomaic leanings.

Now, Akatosh. He didn't start out as Akatosh, but as a very clever political fiction created by Alessia. When her rebellion against the Ayleids was successful, she was faced with a religious quandary. Her Nordic allies would not accept the Aldmeri pantheon, but by the same token the native people of Cyrodiil wouldn't just up and change the Aldmeri pantheon they followed for no reason. So Alessia came to a compromise, and created the Eight Divines. Akatosh, taking traits from the Nordic Shor and the Aldmeri Auri-El. And the others followed - Tsun/Zenithar, Kyne/Kynareth/Y'ffre, and so on. Akatosh was an invention, a lie, but he was a very convincing one. Then Marukh rolled up.

He was an Imga, and he held a very pro-Alessian doctrine that there should only be one god. So he got together with his followers and eventually they ascended the Tower and tried to Break the Dragon. They hoped to sunder Akatosh from Auri-El. What they did was shatter time (since the Time Dragon is time, just as the Space God is space, and so on and so forth). Tamriel lost a thousand and eight years.
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"We get serious about fictional girl underpants, and kid around when it comes to topics like world hunger." ~Teepo on CAGN
#13Brenz0rPosted 2/22/2013 10:40:38 AM(edited)
What resulted from that, however, was that Akatosh became the supreme cultural variant of the time (pardon the pun). Akatosh may be described occasionally as Auri-El with Shor's Heart welded into his chest. Shor in the Cyrodiilic pantheon became Shezzar, the Missing God (as he is in so many other pantheons - the Space God is always missing, and this absence causes a certain degree of mortal mental stress that the various races interpret in different ways).

So when the dust cleared, time was a patchwork wreck (or always had been, given the nature of a Dragon Break, not to mention the other times when some idiot decided it'd be a good idea to punch holes in Time Dragon), Akatosh was now a fully-realised entity, and he "backdated" to Alduin being "shed" from him (even though Alduin is an older perspective than Akatosh, but age can get mucked up when you're discussing time as an actual being suffering from disassociative identity disorder, or something very similar to it). It didn't have anything to do with the Dragonfires, as was mentioned earlier in the thread. The Dragonfires are a cosmetic coronation ritual that was created by Reman. It didn't exist before him.

If you really want to slim it all down into the one sentence, though: Akatosh is not Auri-El, but they are both different ways of seeing and perceiving the Time Dragon, so they can both be real, work against one another, or act against other bits of Time Dragon as necessary, all while being technically parts of the same overarching thing. As well as being part of the Space God (Lorkhan/Sep/Shor/Shezzar/whatever), but that's another topic.

(Final note: Talos is a separate topic. So are the Hist. And again, all this is in brief, so I'm skipping over a lot of stuff to give an abbreviated summary.)
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"We get serious about fictional girl underpants, and kid around when it comes to topics like world hunger." ~Teepo on CAGN
#14Brenz0rPosted 2/22/2013 10:26:18 AM
Postscript: There was a comment made about Alessia and her Dragonborn status by Michael Kirkbride that touches briefly on her covenant. I've reproduced it below.

"Alessia didn't have the power to absorb dragon souls. Hers was a much more nuanced power: to dream of liberty and give it a name and on her deathbed make Covenant with the Aka-Tusk."
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"We get serious about fictional girl underpants, and kid around when it comes to topics like world hunger." ~Teepo on CAGN
#15sunbro1(Topic Creator)Posted 2/22/2013 11:12:12 AM
Thanks that has explained a lot about the divines to me. :)
#16Gamer-ChrisPosted 2/22/2013 11:24:59 AM
jessevale posted...
I think elves have the same blessings as man, nothing to support that by circumstantially, some did breed into the Septim line no? This would give them the dragon blood blessing. Can be confirmed if there were any half elven emperors who lit the fires.

I'm doubting this even as I write it, so don't be afraid to lore slap me.

Either way, AD are bitter about their 'humanity' regardless of its perks.


According to the wiki a lot of the Emperors were Bretons, which makes them half-elf.
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#17Wings of FortePosted 2/22/2013 11:26:31 AM
What the Thalmor wish to do is destroy not just Mankind but the concepts of Mankind and mortality. They want to "uncoil" the Time Dragon and destroy Mundus. They believe that undoing Alessia's "meddling" in the Mythic will accomplish the uncoiling part. I think breaking the links to the Space God, one of which is Talos, is the AD's cosmic plan...that is if the document in the Imperial Library is actually reflective of the Thalmor's actual goals and not their occult tool.

They probably see mankind as an aspect of Lorkhan (his minions keeping the Time Dragon restrained). Am I right?

At any rate, etAda can not be thought of in exclusive anthropomorphic terms. Each cannot be thought of as singular unchanging persona, but rather as a plurality of fluctuating wills encompassed by a natural force.
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#18sunbro1(Topic Creator)Posted 2/22/2013 11:27:44 AM
Wings of Forte posted...
What the Thalmor wish to do is destroy not just Mankind but the concepts of Mankind and mortality. They want to "uncoil" the Time Dragon and destroy Mundus. They believe that undoing Alessia's "meddling" in the Mythic will accomplish the uncoiling part. I think breaking the links to the Space God, one of which is Talos, is the AD's cosmic plan...that is if the document in the Imperial Library is actually reflective of the Thalmor's actual goals and not their occult tool.

They probably see mankind as an aspect of Lorkhan (his minions keeping the Time Dragon restrained). Am I right?

At any rate, etAda can not be thought of in exclusive anthropomorphic terms. Each cannot be thought of as singular unchanging persona, but rather as a plurality of fluctuating wills encompassed by a natural force.


I already knew this TBH i was wondering on their concept of the time dragon and his blessing towards men
#19Kant_Remoob_EhtPosted 2/22/2013 11:28:01 AM
Brenz0r posted...
Postscript: There was a comment made about Alessia and her Dragonborn status by Michael Kirkbride that touches briefly on her covenant. I've reproduced it below.

"Alessia didn't have the power to absorb dragon souls. Hers was a much more nuanced power: to dream of liberty and give it a name and on her deathbed make Covenant with the Aka-Tusk."


So yeah... they are all one and yet they all aren't? Are they Legion?
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GT: Boomer and Tank
Pretty darn confident..... I don't want to have to wait till the Microendony XBOXS 4ii comes out another 15 years later....
#20sunbro1(Topic Creator)Posted 2/22/2013 11:38:41 AM
Kant_Remoob_Eht posted...
Brenz0r posted...
Postscript: There was a comment made about Alessia and her Dragonborn status by Michael Kirkbride that touches briefly on her covenant. I've reproduced it below.

"Alessia didn't have the power to absorb dragon souls. Hers was a much more nuanced power: to dream of liberty and give it a name and on her deathbed make Covenant with the Aka-Tusk."


So yeah... they are all one and yet they all aren't? Are they Legion?


They are basically different believes of the time dragon.