I want to level a Mage, but everyone tells me Destruction sucks.

#11Darg727Posted 3/11/2014 9:00:02 AM
Spinder1 posted...
People probably don't use other Destruction spells because they suck. They cost too much for what they do and are unreliable. Like you say Walls are totally bugged and useless because of it. Master spells are kind of lame because of the charge-up time and the DPS on Lightning Storm isn't even better than using the Expert spells IIRC. Cloaks' damage is bad and it adds one more thing you have to recast. These spells should all be good but aren't because of the poor balancing in cost/damage as well as the tedium of switching around spells due to the bad quickselect system.

If you want gameplay balance, you're playing the wrong game >_>

Everything in Skyrim is broken...

I'd like balance in TES, yeah. Other games show that there's no reason it couldn't exist. I think Skyrim has solid fundamentals to build on and eventually create a more well balanced combat experience. Archery for example is a really nice skill with a good sense of perk progression and variety. If every skill was up to par the combat would probably be pretty damn good. So there's no reason we shouldn't constructively critize and hope for improvements.


Make a wall trap, rune, cloak, and a dualcast to the face and watch them melt. and seriously has no one played dragon age? Baldur's Gate on PC? Neverwinter Nights?
#12Darg727Posted 3/11/2014 9:07:14 AM
[This message was deleted at the request of the original poster]
#13Darg727Posted 3/11/2014 9:09:23 AM(edited)
DEV1ANTGAMER posted...
Destruction sucks, not because it's not viable, but because it's a hassle to make it viable. There's alot of little tricks to learn, some might even call them exploits. Using the skill as intended is pretty underwhelming. I think other posts covered this pretty well though.

The magic skills are poorly balanced in this game, from a damage perspective, from a mechanics perspective, from a perk perspective, from a convenience perspective, ect. It's perfectly possible to make it into an awesome skill, but other skills will get there with alot less effort and alot less learning. Depending on how much you want to get "into" your roleplaying experience, having to power-game and min-max so much might be jarring.



Then again everything except Archery and Block are kind of poorly balanced in this game... not that those arent broken in some ways too, but at least the perks for them are interesting and feel like they do something besides increase a number or percentage.


I'm confused. Destruction does more dps than anything until you max enchanting, alchemy, blacksmithing, weapon type skill, and get dragon bone weaponry. Even then you still use potions. It is a lot of work.

Edit: I forgot food too.
#14DEV1ANTGAMERPosted 3/11/2014 9:16:19 AM
Mainly because other skills feel like you're getting stronger as you train them up and invest in perks and stuff.

The main way magic gets stronger is by buying better spells. Kinda makes for a crappy experience if you're not the kind of player who likes to hoard up money and save for stuff.

Also, one could argue that magic is completely inviable without enchanting also. Who's really take away from Health to invest in Magicka on the higher difficulties? It was a flaw IMO, to divide up the attributes the way they did, rather than use a system similar to Oblivion's... but thats a completely separate discussion I guess.
#15Spinder1Posted 3/11/2014 9:57:09 AM(edited)
Make a wall trap, rune, cloak, and a dualcast to the face and watch them melt

Yeah, no. I don't feel like letting you sit here unopposed and make this claim when it simply doesn't work that way in the game. The rune and cloak are both worse cost/damage investments than simply dualcasting perpetually. The wall is also weaker than simple repeated castings and it depends on the enemy staying inside it. And they're not worse by a little. They're worse by a lot. Let's get the actual numbers out there, what the damage and cost is on each.

Firebolt
DMG: 25
Cost: 41

Fireball
DMG: 40
Cost: 133

Incinerate
DMG: 60
Cost: 298

Rune
DMG: 50
Cost: 234

Flame Cloak
DMG: 8/sec (let us, generously, assume it hits for 10 seconds)
Cost: 289

These are the objective numbers. Anyone can tell from a single quick look how badly balanced and scaled the spells from the school are. Without going to unnecessary lengths, when using spells other than the basic Firebolt, and the AoE skills for multiple enemies, at best you get by, while still doing worse - probably considerably worse - than you would have been doing simply chucking bolts at the enemies. It's absolute bull that people dislike the skill because they don't use the other Destruction spells. They don't use those spells because there's no reward in it, merely punishment.

Now yes, I'm sure that you can do fantastically well when you've constructed your set of uber-gear, your boatload of uber-potions that you log around and went to every imaginable length to boost up the general effectiveness of the skill for it to stop sucking. But there's absolutely NO reason that anyone should have to do that. Powergaming should by no stretch of the imagination be necessary. The skill should develop fluidly, naturally and in a well balanced manner. Destruction does not accomplish this. The pure fact of the matter is that it gets progressively worse and worse and has to lean on other skills and min-maxing as a crutch. This is not defensible by means of saying "if you min-max and powergame the skill is viable".
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Let him be king over charred bones and cooked meat. Let him be the king of ashes
#16LockeadonPosted 3/11/2014 10:11:14 AM
DEV1ANTGAMER posted...
Destruction sucks, not because it's not viable, but because it's a hassle to make it viable. There's alot of little tricks to learn, some might even call them exploits. Using the skill as intended is pretty underwhelming. I think other posts covered this pretty well though.

The magic skills are poorly balanced in this game, from a damage perspective, from a mechanics perspective, from a perk perspective, from a convenience perspective, ect. It's perfectly possible to make it into an awesome skill, but other skills will get there with alot less effort and alot less learning. Depending on how much you want to get "into" your roleplaying experience, having to power-game and min-max so much might be jarring.



Then again everything except Archery and Block are kind of poorly balanced in this game... not that those arent broken in some ways too, but at least the perks for them are interesting and feel like they do something besides increase a number or percentage.
Mighty Talos, it's hard to like offensive magic when Archery is such a better long-range killer. Destruction needed time slowing and zoom perks... and critical hit perks... and weapons (staves) that increased the power of spells like bows do for arrows... and awsome effects like poisons have on arrows...
By the Divines, I'm starting to sound like Kyo now.


so just like i said. if smithing and enchanting weapons to rediculous levels isnt an exploit neither is using potions and poisons to make magic more effective. the only real problem with destruction and magic in general (aside the bugged spells and lack of variety) is people who want to make flames do a million damage and throw hissy fits on the boards when they find out they cant. or that god forbid it takes a small amount of effort. spell damage has NEVER increased based on skill level, the reason magic was better in older games is two main things: lack of spellmaking and removal of most of a school and spell effects like weakness to magic, weakness to element. weakness to poison, the absorb spells, chameleon, etc etc etc. everything that used to be used to make magic stronger. its mostly still here, except only as poisons. that and how there are shouts like dragon aspect elemental fury an berserk etc that increase the effectiveness of melee weapons even more, while all mages get is more and more cost reduction. if you are going to need cost reduction, LOWER THE BASE COSTS instead of giving us nothing that increases the utility. without spellmaking we can't correct beths awful spell design with better versions of our own making, other than with mods anyway. spellmaking has always been a part of elder scrolls, as essential for mages as smithing is for fighters and sneak is for thieves
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everytime i think i've seen it all...
someone does something stupider
#17tib196Posted 3/11/2014 10:38:25 AM
Destruction is fine on adept. Depending on how much armor you're using you may need to kite things more than with other skills but if you are aware of the various methods for keeping enough magicka ready to keep casting, you can kill the vast majority of the enemies pretty easily. Once you get perked up with aspect of terror + augment flames, and have enough cost reduction to spam fireballs, in most encounters you are just as unstoppable as with weapon skills.

To those trashing the skill, I really would challenge you to play on master or legendary relying on archery or melee skills for all your damage. Not that destruction isn't also weak on those difficulties but for some reason people have this idea that weapon skills don't also blow really hard on the highest settings.
#18LockeadonPosted 3/11/2014 11:01:15 AM(edited)
DEV1ANTGAMER posted...
Mainly because other skills feel like you're getting stronger as you train them up and invest in perks and stuff.

The main way magic gets stronger is by buying better spells. Kinda makes for a crappy experience if you're not the kind of player who likes to hoard up money and save for stuff.

Also, one could argue that magic is completely inviable without enchanting also. Who's really take away from Health to invest in Magicka on the higher difficulties? It was a flaw IMO, to divide up the attributes the way they did, rather than use a system similar to Oblivion's... but thats a completely separate discussion I guess.


pretty much everything is unviable without some form of enchanting, on legendary difficulty anyway. although WHAT you enchant for is different. also, you can find or buy good magic gear without needing to enchant it yourself, as you can any other type. a good mage basically doesn't need health at all. they aren't in melee range, arrows are easy to dodge, so are most spells, become ethereal dodges EVERYTHING, whirlwind sprint can dodge most things, wards eat dragonbreath and the few spells that are hard to dodge, invisibility and sneak and muffle = invincible mage, cause nothing will attack you if they can't find you. you can cast anything you want from any sane place in stealth and not be detected by most things once you have quiet casting. healing spells can be improved to heal stamina as well, meaning mages can sprint indefinitely once they have that perk. they can outdps any normal character who isn't abusing the system to make their armors impregnable with ridiculous enchant and armor values and turn their weapons into nuclear missiles that destroy everything for them automatically. destruction magic is (mostly) faster and easier to hit with than bows or especially crossbows. i don't put points in health. as a mage, i've died like 85% less times on legendary than on any of my other playthroughs, even my stealth archer. also, if you rely on impact, your doing it wrong. the reason impact exist is if you need to increase the range between you and the enemy, otherwise its more effective to quickly hit both attack buttons to get better dps. ive seen alot of stupid things here, like people complaining that legendary dragons are impossible even on adept. you might want to try NOT hitting flame dragons with fire. different enemies actually have different elemental resistances and weaknesses, so if you don't hit the weakness, or at least the right spell for the situation, your doing it wrong. if you are standing still as a mage, you aren't too bright. charging spells doesn't mean you have to stand there like a moron looking for elefairies. that's what archers are for. (any archers out there, get ranger so you aren't a sitting duck anymore) charging spells doesn't slow you down at all. as a consequence, unless you are in an area where there are no enemies like your house, you should always have a spell charged up and ready. use elsewhere fondle(i know thats not right, but its funnier) or homecooked meal to regen your magicka between fights. ring of the erudite helps quite abit if you vampire. (it works in human form too) if you have a regen build itll stack with it all. altmers out there don't forget your racial power. it can be helpful for any longish fight, especially if you have a magicka/magicka regen build anyway. also combos well with the aforementioned foods. on a side note, with dawnguard, everyone should vampire or vampire necromage. necromages are more or less the best mages you can get, cause they can illusion pretty much everything and many of their spells get better if i understand it correctly, especially against other undead.

i agree about how stats are gained in skyrim.
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everytime i think i've seen it all...
someone does something stupider
#19Darg727Posted 3/11/2014 11:00:28 AM
tib196 posted...
Destruction is fine on adept. Depending on how much armor you're using you may need to kite things more than with other skills but if you are aware of the various methods for keeping enough magicka ready to keep casting, you can kill the vast majority of the enemies pretty easily. Once you get perked up with aspect of terror + augment flames, and have enough cost reduction to spam fireballs, in most encounters you are just as unstoppable as with weapon skills.

To those trashing the skill, I really would challenge you to play on master or legendary relying on archery or melee skills for all your damage. Not that destruction isn't also weak on those difficulties but for some reason people have this idea that weapon skills don't also blow really hard on the highest settings.


That is what I don't understand people compare destruction to the weapon skills plus enchanting, plus black smithing, plus alchemy.

And to refute spinder1 cloak spell magnitude is their range so all buffed up my flame cloak does over 50 dps with the same range through walls. Over 3000 damage per cast. Most efficient spell in my opinion.
#20LockeadonPosted 3/11/2014 11:19:56 AM
Spinder1 posted...
Make a wall trap, rune, cloak, and a dualcast to the face and watch them melt

Yeah, no. I don't feel like letting you sit here unopposed and make this claim when it simply doesn't work that way in the game. The rune and cloak are both worse cost/damage investments than simply dualcasting perpetually. The wall is also weaker than simple repeated castings and it depends on the enemy staying inside it. And they're not worse by a little. They're worse by a lot. Let's get the actual numbers out there, what the damage and cost is on each.

Firebolt
DMG: 25
Cost: 41

Fireball
DMG: 40
Cost: 133

Incinerate
DMG: 60
Cost: 298

Rune
DMG: 50
Cost: 234

Flame Cloak
DMG: 8/sec (let us, generously, assume it hits for 10 seconds)
Cost: 289

These are the objective numbers. Anyone can tell from a single quick look how badly balanced and scaled the spells from the school are. Without going to unnecessary lengths, when using spells other than the basic Firebolt, and the AoE skills for multiple enemies, at best you get by, while still doing worse - probably considerably worse - than you would have been doing simply chucking bolts at the enemies. It's absolute bull that people dislike the skill because they don't use the other Destruction spells. They don't use those spells because there's no reward in it, merely punishment.

Now yes, I'm sure that you can do fantastically well when you've constructed your set of uber-gear, your boatload of uber-potions that you log around and went to every imaginable length to boost up the general effectiveness of the skill for it to stop sucking. But there's absolutely NO reason that anyone should have to do that. Powergaming should by no stretch of the imagination be necessary. The skill should develop fluidly, naturally and in a well balanced manner. Destruction does not accomplish this. The pure fact of the matter is that it gets progressively worse and worse and has to lean on other skills and min-maxing as a crutch. This is not defensible by means of saying "if you min-max and powergame the skill is viable".


nothing is skyrim is even close to being balanced. if anything aside from spell costs and bugged spells like the walls and blizzard, destruction is the closest thing there is in this game to a balanced combat skill. new spells become available as you level the skill, and pretty much every enemy is weak to at least one element. all you need is 100% spell reduction or a crapload of magicka/magicka regen, cause even with the perks that halve spell cost everything still costs too much. and for a damage skill, it doesn't really have many perks that actually increase damage.

also, everything else has an even bigger list of things they need to do before they start getting close to destruction dps.

min-maxing and powergaming are why people think flames should be able to do a million damage in the first place, because every other combat skill in skyrim is a min/maxers paradise. so we are here again at this thing where using potions and/or enchanting for magic is min/maxing but somehow min/maxing for other damage types, which takes longer and is more complicated and has many perks and every crafting tree pushed to the limit somehow isn't min/maxing?
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everytime i think i've seen it all...
someone does something stupider