Do you guys ever wonder what went through the minds of Bethesda?

#21DeathpointPosted 1/20/2013 1:00:30 PM
TGPomy9795 posted...
Will you people ever be happy?


Not when the series is regressing with each iteration.
#22BowserCuffsPosted 1/20/2013 1:39:22 PM
Deathpoint posted...
TGPomy9795 posted...
Will you people ever be happy?


Not when the series is regressing with each iteration.


I don't really see that at all. It's moving in a different direction, not "regressing".

Truth is, I would place each TES game at about the same level of overall quality.

Except Daggerfall, on virtue of the fact that I haven't played it so I can't judge it.

Arena

+Gameplay isn't "mash a button"
+Classes have meaning
+Best spell customization of the series
+Best stat-based combat of the series
+Fast travel
+Perfect balance between giving the player directions and not holding the player's hand
+You can delete spells you have no more use for
-Ridiculouly unbalanced classes. Game tends to be either easy as heaven or hard as hell, simply by virtue of what class you select.
-Graphics can be esoteric at times
-You can go on a murdering spree, which is ridiculously easy because all citizens have exactly 1 HP, and then break into somebody's house and all your crimes will be instantly forgotten.
-Why are orcs, liches, and hellhounds spawning in the house of the person I just broke into!?
-Second biggest landscape, entirely randomly generated, and you can't actually get anywhere WITHOUT fast travelling
-Plate Armor is the only type of armor that can actually be enchanted, despite all of the fridge logic this entails.
-Shield spells are rather overpowered, being that they have infinite duration. In other words, as long as you have a place to rest uninterrupted, you can use your entire mana bar to cast one and essentially have that much temporary HP.

Morrowind

+Best quality-to-size ratio in regards to geography. Areas tend to be very distinctive.
+Introduced birth signs to help make your character customization more streamlined
+Widest variety of magic spells and effects
+Only small parts of the world level up with you, but the big bad is always the big bad, and the artifacts are always the artifacts. Less hero-centric world.
+Allows you to delete spells as well
+NPCs actually have stats and some vague amount of personality now rather than being aids to navigating the world.
-Unforgiving for new players who aren't using a guide
+Unforgiving means rewarding when you overcome it
-Terrible and heavily exploitable level system
-Several skills and many items are useless except as a grinding aid against the level up system
-Most of the default classes, compared to Arena and Daggerfall, are outright terrible, meaning there's rarely any point in playing a non-default class
-NPCs, for all of their newfound stats, are completely forgettable and lifeless to boot.
-There is no real difference between day and night except for werewolves and vampires.
-Guilds rely far too heavily on benchmarking and not heavily enough on accomplishments in these fields -- Meaning a warrior with high intelligence, willpower, and two magic skills counts as a "mage" to the Mage's Guild and the Telvanni, even if all he did was pay a trainer to level up his magic skills.

(continued next post)
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Certified Dragon Maniac
I went to College for Obsessions and everything to get that certification.
#23BowserCuffsPosted 1/20/2013 2:01:18 PM(edited)
Morrowind (continued)

-Fast Travel has been yanked out of the game, despite being in the previous two games. This means your only means of fast travel are Mark and Recall, as well as paying for silt striders and ships.
+On the other hand, this does force you to actually explore a bit...
-Committing a crime in one place means every guard ever now knows about it. Psychic guards are not fun.

Oblivion

+Most beautiful use of colors yet
+Races are not as ugly as Morrowind's
-But holy cow, that uncanny valley is TERRIBLE, making Morrowind's races more comfortable on the eyes. Very ironic.
+Character customization is a little simpler, which makes it a bit friendlier for new players
+The world levels up with you, allowing you to take pretty much any roleplaying decision you want to make.
-Unfortunately, the world levels up with you a bit too much, meaning you'll eventually have ridiculous encounters like bandits in glass armor, goblins with insane amounts of defense, and so forth.
-Quest rewards also level up with you, meaning that some quests are inexplicably better off left for later, or in some cases, done earlier than you would normally do them.
+Characters are more memorable, for better
-or worse...
+Guilds don't rely on benchmarking, more or less making them entirely accomplishment-based. The game gives rewards based on the guild, so mage's guild tends to get more spells.
-Unfortunately if you don't actually care about rewards or roleplaying, it means you can steamroll right through the Mage's Guild without casting a single spell. The game hands you scrolls.
+Combat feels less silly than Morrowind's "My sword went right through you and you took no damage, I guess you must've dodged or I missed somehow". You also have actual variety for your attacks now, being that you have power attacks.
-There is no non-best attack anymore. All attacks are considered best attacks.
-Less weapon variety
-Worst leveling system, and also the most exploitable leveling system. Take everything bad about Morrowind's leveling system and amplify it, and that's what Oblivion is.
-Smaller world than Morrowind, areas seem to be a little less distinctive
-Psychic guards

(Oddly, I would say that Oblivion is the worst TES so far, but still enjoyable. Worst game of a great series is still a great game after all)

Skyrim

+World only partially scales with you. You can still run into meat walls.
+World contains MANY subtle stories, such as murals on the walls of what would be another forgettable dungeon.
-Unfortunately, the series has continued the tradition of having very forgettable dungeons, and most players don't even notice the subtle stories Skyrim has
+Whiterun NPCs are almost all memorable.
-While other cities also have memorable NPCs, they don't have the same concentration of them.
-Magic customization is completely gone now
+However, actually using magic has become more interesting. Ironic, that.
-Destruction is underpowered, Impact is overpowered, leading to an odd dichotomy of a skill that doesn't taste right
+Skyrim brought back "Enchant" from Morrowind and Pickpocketing from Daggerfall
-Skyrim took out Mysticism and Hand to Hand
?Skyrim condensed and divided weapon skills based on how many hands you hold. This does make a fair amount of sense, but it's still a questionable decision.
+Voice acting is actually great now. It makes the repetitive voices more forgiving.
-But the repetitive voices must still be noted
-The guild questlines are short and rankless.
+...But at least they require you to demonstrate your skill instead of benchmarking you.

This isn't a comprehensive list (I actually ran out of room and didn't want to triple post) but I think it does put into perspective that the TES series is not regressing.
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Certified Dragon Maniac
I went to College for Obsessions and everything to get that certification.
#24bshwalkerPosted 1/20/2013 5:58:23 PM
BowserCuffs posted...
bshwalker posted...
Irreally believe that in order to get the game out on the promised 11/11/11, they left a lot of stuff unfinished or not in the game game at all.
Bards College. Why is that even in the game? It offers absolutely nothing and is really a waste of time.


The equivalent of a miniature, all-skills Ogham Infinium is "nothing" now?


No, not saying that. It was nothing to me, though.
It didn't give me anything useful.
To be honest, before mods, I was monumentally disappointed with Skyrim. It went in the exact opposite direction of what I wanted so I was disappointed with every reward, guild, quest and ability it had. I was and still am highly tainted against everything vanilla and as a result, anything I say about Skyrim should be taken with a grain of salt. I'm not being sarcastic or funny, it's the truth.
Normally I stay away from statements like my post but it was late and I was sleepy so I spouted without thinking.
You caught me.
My bad.
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Pretentious, nostalgia goggles wearing, hipster and proud of it! Don't like it? Suck it up! You weren't there. I l'aiq, M'aiq.
~C.O.I.~
#25bshwalkerPosted 1/20/2013 6:12:38 PM(edited)
galaxiadarkness posted...
bshwalker posted...
Irreally believe that in order to get the game out on the promised 11/11/11, they left a lot of stuff unfinished or not in the game game at all.
Bards College. Why is that even in the game? It offers absolutely nothing and is really a waste of time.
Marriage. See above.
If you browse the ck, you'll see a lot of stuff that was unused. If you try to activate some of them, they don't work.
Fatigue is one example and crossbows are another.
The DLC seems to be just implementation of things that should have been in the vanilla game, didn't make the 11/11/11 deadline and was thrown in later.

I think Beth was thinking, "Get it out on time!" and nothing else.
Took a few months to get the ck out!



The reason things that you call useless are in the game is because they add depth. The point of Skyrim is that there is so much stuff to do, you don't ever have to do it all. It's a realistic (sort of) world that you can get lost in. In the real world, someone might choose to spend their time in a way you deem useless, but someone has to be a bard. The fact that they thought to include a place where bards are trained and where you can go too just shows how much painstaking detail Bethesda put in. You can go and poke holes in what they left out, but ultimately, there is no better, more detailed game you can go play.


Yea but you don't ever get to be a bard. I totally understand your point, and I'm sure I was expecting too much, but to me, the point of going to a bards college is to be able to start actually playing an instrument or singing or poetry or something.
It just seemed rushed, but whatever. To each his own.
It did nothing for me and I felt like it was a waste of time.
It was purely a case of expecting something, which was my mistake, and getting something I had no use for.
I wanted to come out of there at least learning to play a drum, so I was disappointed.
like I said above, I was expecting too much in the game as a whole. Mods have fixed most of my problems with it, including a fantastic mod that allows me to avoid most quests and erase the ones that are forced on you. I can play any instrument, after I build it and unarmed and unarmored are in my game.
I've made a few of my own so now I have the game that I wanted from the start.
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Pretentious, nostalgia goggles wearing, hipster and proud of it! Don't like it? Suck it up! You weren't there. I l'aiq, M'aiq.
~C.O.I.~
#26AdrenasPosted 1/20/2013 6:30:39 PM
The lowest tier one-handed perks are +damage%.. which is a perk you would expect to see. One that directly increases damage. The decapitation perk is nice, being able to get weapon specific bonuses like bleed damage or crits is okay, and lowering stamina use for power attacks is expected. Other than that one-handed tree is sort of bleh. On the other hand I had a lot of fun with the perks in the block tree. I also like the archery tree a lot, it added some features that really improved over marksmanship in Oblivion. As for "any scrub killing a few dragons and getting to have a full set of dragonscale" well, to do that you need to have 100 smithing skill which if done legitimately can take a while and will force you up several levels.

The reward is playing the game, exploring, etc., not the gear you pick up. I don't really see your complaint. In crawling through certain dungeons that are set to higher min/max level scale i've actually noticed some pretty nice loot showing up. I've seen daedric swords/arrows/etc., and in a chest after the end of the gauldur's mystery (or whatever that quest is called with the necklace, which is itself a pretty nice reward since it gives +30 to health/stamina/magicka as a jewelry piece) I actually found a dragonscale shield with a 70% resist lightning enchant on it. I didn't even think that you could GET dragonscale/bone stuff outside of crafting it (which again requires 100 smithing). I find ebony/glass stuff quite regularly. You just don't see the super duper loot show up until you're in higher levels. Some people say the game is too easy on master, well, you could always skip out on pumping up smithing and wait until the mid 40s-50s to get your higher tier gear.. that could help. Anyway, I end up spending most of my time screwing off hunting down random icons I see pop up on my compass and exploring or reading through the books I find in dungeons. Enjoyment is whatever you have fun with. I've been aiming my characters to specific builds so that they will excel and perform in different ways that I find fun. I can use smithing and/or enchanting to enable that if I don't get the item rewards I feel I need. I will agree that they could have done a better job with named/unique loot and making it more competitive with what we can craft. Maybe named versions of each (especially top) tier of items that we could then use our mad skills to make legendary quality etc,. My "Wtf bethesda" this go around is more reserved for how WEAK some of the questlines are. Like civil war, companions (fighters guild back plz?!), college of winterhold (wtf, the major location in skyrim for the original elder scrolls was the mages guild and now they make skyrim and no mages guild??), and the thieve's guild ones that require more bullying/mob type junk than genuine thieves guild type stuff.

I also have to agree that there is a lack of genuine "boss" type monsters, but that's normal for TES really. Although there are a few quests that have boss style encounters and even decent loot. Like the gaulther's necklace guys, they're more annoying than anything else from the teleporting and unrelenting force shouts, but it's a boss fight and the end loot is nice. Also the named dragon priests can be fun and most drop some pretty cool masks. I've been toting around Krosis since level 4 for the bonuses to lockpicking and alchemy.

I love the game, even vanilla, and bethesda gave us a system that modders can do a lot with. The framework is a solid improvement over oblivion in most aspects. Again.. the questlines were pretty fail, but the game IS fun. And it looks pretty good too... in spite of how often I find myself wishing it had more COLOR.
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I used to be an internet troll like you, but then I took an arrow in my immaturity.
#27AdrenasPosted 1/20/2013 7:03:06 PM
Greatposts, bowsercuffs! I agree with most of your assessments. In Arena, I have to say the randomly generated dungeons are both a plus and a minus though. You had to actually find your way around and you couldn't just read a guide to get through (which was a rare find in those days anyway). Three or four dungeons (like the initial one) were actually set. On the other hand the dungeons could get pretty annoying, but play long enough and you notice the different patterns. Only plate armor could be enchanted.. but that at least went a little ways towards balancing melee types with uber OP casters. Daggerfall was fairly similar to Arena, you could always give it a go.. if i'm not mistaken it should be available to download for free alongside Arena from bethedsa :).

As for exploits, especially leveling ones, I have to say that can be either an issue or a non issue at player discretion. You have to choose to exploit it and if you really want to exploit.. there are console codes. At least in arena you'd have to use a hex editor though. I think the leveling system in Oblivion COULD have been good/interesting in its own way if it had been polished a bit more and not been implemented so terribad. Having to keep minor skills to spam up before leveling with major skills so you could pump stats was irritating. I really loved Oblivion though, the quest lines were great and for the time it looked fantastic.

Skyrim introduced perks, which i've come to like, and did away with the major/minor skill nonsense. I like just choosing health/stamina/magicka in a way, but in a way it also gets on my nerves... almost solely because I wanted a way to boost my carrying capacity early on without fortify carry enchants or the meager 5lbs with a stamina increase. But I still see it as a major improvement over Oblivion level ups. Some of the perk trees suck, some are fun. In my opinion the one handed tree could have had some better options, but with the block tree a sword(or axe/mace whatever) and board fighter has a much more fun combat style and more variety/choices in combat than in previous TES games. I've noticed perks in archery that both repeat good stuff from Oblivion archery (zoom) and give some cool new effects (stagger, paralyze chance, time slow down) that could make it a lot of fun. I have to assume on that though because I haven't played a ranged heavy character yet and I can't remark on magic other than being a little disappointed that there aren't custom spells because i've scarcely used any magic at all. WOuld've rather seen the resist magic perks in a tree besides alteration though... hitting 70 in it and spending 2 perk points i'll get nothing from to get to it sucked. I look forward to playing my next character which will focus on stealth/archery/magic rather than sword&board with a splash of stealth/archery. Again, great post(s)! You were right on target for the most part and made good points.
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I used to be an internet troll like you, but then I took an arrow in my immaturity.
#28Osafune2Posted 1/20/2013 7:41:05 PM
My biggest issue is the lacklustre loot. You never find anything better than what you can easily smith yourself.
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Currently playing: Skyrim
GT: Osafune2
#29BowserCuffsPosted 1/20/2013 7:43:28 PM
bshwalker posted...
BowserCuffs posted...
bshwalker posted...
Irreally believe that in order to get the game out on the promised 11/11/11, they left a lot of stuff unfinished or not in the game game at all.
Bards College. Why is that even in the game? It offers absolutely nothing and is really a waste of time.


The equivalent of a miniature, all-skills Ogham Infinium is "nothing" now?


No, not saying that. It was nothing to me, though.
It didn't give me anything useful.
To be honest, before mods, I was monumentally disappointed with Skyrim. It went in the exact opposite direction of what I wanted so I was disappointed with every reward, guild, quest and ability it had. I was and still am highly tainted against everything vanilla and as a result, anything I say about Skyrim should be taken with a grain of salt. I'm not being sarcastic or funny, it's the truth.
Normally I stay away from statements like my post but it was late and I was sleepy so I spouted without thinking.
You caught me.
My bad.


To be fair to you, the Bard's College does suck, even by my generally over-accepting standards.

I mean, one quest (which I enjoyed) and then three sidequests (which were kinda meh, one of which glitched out on me)
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Certified Dragon Maniac
I went to College for Obsessions and everything to get that certification.
#30mistermikeymike(Topic Creator)Posted 1/20/2013 9:50:39 PM
TGPomy9795 posted...
Will you people ever be happy? Sure, this game doesn't have everything perfect, but it is by far one of the best games made. You need to take it for what is it, not for what it should have been. Bethesda did a hell of a job on this game. This thread just proves that video game developers can never please everybody....Don't like something? Download a mod to fix it and quiet down.


from a game design standpoint skyrim is very poor. actually i'd argue skyrims content in general is rather low quality. skyrim just shows that quantity > quality
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So Damn Foxy.