Infusion Monster Builds; Now hijacked to be BMSirius' special project; Thread 5

#1BMSiriusPosted 4/17/2012 2:20:38 PM
Hello all,

This is a continuation of this thread, and the three threads that came before it:

http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/619315-final-fantasy-xiii-2/62509019

In addition, the Top Tier and DLC sections of the guide are complete, and can be found here:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/73219112/Monster%20Builds.txt

Please don't post here until the former thread reaches 500.

Thanks!
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#2JoloStukiPosted 4/17/2012 2:21:39 PM
EXCELSIOR!!

*Spears BMSirius in the thigh*

OH DAMN. I got excited. I am sooooooooooo sorry. I'll get some paper-towels.
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#3Noah_IvaldiPosted 4/17/2012 5:36:19 PM
[This message was deleted at the request of a moderator or administrator]
#4BMSirius(Topic Creator)Posted 4/17/2012 8:12:25 PM
The "Gimmick" section is an upcoming section alongside "Almost Top Tier", so monsters that have special quality but aren't the best could have a place there. Since the discussion has almost entirely slowed to "chocobo racers", I don't mind people bringing up alternate things as long as they actually have a unique property and aren't just bad versions of what we already have.

Uh... I wasn't asking about errors in the posted Monster FAQ. I was asking about errors in MY guide. I'm aware of the Ally KO problem in the Monster FAQ.

I am not inclined to agree with you at all, Noah. This "over-the-top" racer build would serve very little purpose, similar to Pulse Gladiator, and simply exists to show the best that you can possibly create. Except in Pulse Gladiator's case, we have another more practical monster, the Goblin Chieftian, to show. If we show this over-the-top unnecessary racer without proposing something more practical, there's no real reason to create it.

On top of that, this is a guide to make it so that you don't have to find someone's post, go to a thread, or read a racing-based FAQ. That's the purpose of any guide anywhere. There is nothing counter-productive about it - if the Purpose section is made clear, then we can show both the most powerful racer (and discuss all of the strategies to work it best) as well as the one that requires the least micromanagement. That would be the goal of the second build - to reduce micromanagement. If the reason for making the best monster is to lower the times that it takes to beat super battles, why not make the racer that lowers the times that it takes to perform races? At most the "over-the-top" racer will win better by 1 second, as opposed to the minutes it can take to make sure you count up the opposing strategies to choose your own, buy and use Chocobulls, etc. If you truly believe that it is so easy and redundant, then we should strike the racer section altogether.

We're not moving to a different forum, regardless of the functionalities of it. GameFAQs serves a very special purpose here - I don't think I really need to explain it.
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"Stupid? How the hell can someone come to that conclusion? Serah is a ****ing state-of-the-art plot-seeking missile in this game." - TheSmartestBomb
#5BMSirius(Topic Creator)Posted 4/17/2012 8:21:34 PM(edited)
Re-posting my inquiries from the former topic, as they are basically the last questions I have before claiming it done.

@Taly: Gilgamesh resistance testing is something I'd like to see as well.

I see what you're saying about Typhon vs Gilgamesh. The difference in that Gilgamesh's Feral Link is longer and more damaging, while Typhon's primary advantage is Daze which doesn't work on most bosses - other than that, it is faster (not as good for Stagger gauge freezing) and less damaging. Thus, Gilgamesh's build has HP and Feral Speed II, while Typhon (who has less of a need for Feral Speed II) can go with the superior defenses of Resist Physical and Magic because he has TWO slots available. The difference in choice is based entirely in the merit of the Feral Link.

The CBBII thing wasn't directed at you Taly, it was directed at the multitude of people who were talking about it.

For gunzwei's build, I just wanted people to see it. I was wondering mostly if anybody saw any merit to Auto-Haste, but... I dunno, although someone like Typhon might help speed up the average player, there are two problems: 1. You have to use a different COM to kill the UFO because he is too sow, and 2. The absolute best speedruns don't even bother to kill the initial PuPus at all, nullifying the point entirely.

@Noah: [quote]For Typhon and Gil, how about a boss-based build with random encounter alts?[endquote]

That is what I decided on even before you posted, and you can see it in the guide as such. Let me know if you have any further suggestions (besides grammar stuffs which I WILL address).

I'm still on the fence for First Strike on Typhon. I am honestly somewhat inclined to do Auto-Faith and First Strike on my Typhon EVEN if its not for PuPu. If I'm gonna bother to make something for random battles, then it SHOULD be about lowering times, so First Strike would be good. Then again, Auto-Faith and Feral Speed II would be even better... It's one of those things like choosing MED or SEN skills - pick the LEAST superfluous choice. Sigh. So, yeah, I'm still looking for thoughts on it...

The Kill: ATB Charge thing is unfortunately irrelevant because Typhon's speed sucks too much to fight the UFO - he needs to be switched out to let a faster monster kill the UFO.

Here's the guide link again for convenience:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/73219112/Monster%20Builds.txt

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"Stupid? How the hell can someone come to that conclusion? Serah is a ****ing state-of-the-art plot-seeking missile in this game." - TheSmartestBomb
#6Noah_IvaldiPosted 4/17/2012 9:10:40 PM
Okay; I just had to point that one out, 'cause it's probably causing a lot of confusion. As long as you're just referring to your guide, though, I don't see any problems, yet.

The problem with that logic is that basically everything is "more practical" than this. A "more practical" (i.e. somewhat easier to build) racer is basically just any chocobo that you've gotten lazy on the Crystarium with and/or don't want to bother to infuse as many abilities onto. Seriously, even though this is terribly excessive, anything simpler is just a matter of, "Eh, this is excessive, so you can just drop what you don't want. Sprinter and Marathoner are basically the only super-essentials, and Free Spirit is close behind as long as you don't rely totally on luck. Oh, and be sure that your stats get up to the 800 mark, whether you need to infuse an ability for it or just use a good Crystarium build." That's basically it. If we submit a "minimalist" build for chocobos, we'll seriously have to submit about 50 variations.

Fine, then strike the racing section altogether, 'cause it really does have a lot of redundancies and excess. The only purpose that the racing section could sufficiently serve would be to make the super-best racer ('cause the FAQ serves as the one-stop shop for the conclusions of the top theorycrafters), and an updated list of passive > racing ability translations would go with that, but moving beyond that point is just insane.
-> I disagree that all guides are meant to make it so that one never has to refer to other guides. That's exactly why nothing gets updated; one person dedicates his/her time to some purpose, then that same information is copied into a comprehensive walkthrough, so the person sees no reason to maintain said dedication. Hence, the comprehensive walkthrough author gets overworked and eventually gives up. Meanwhile, people are too lazy to read more than a couple paragraphs at a time, so they never search through the comprehensive walkthroughs for what they want, but know that the more specific versions are abandoned, so no one learns anything, the boards get trolled with more redundant questions that everyone gets tired of answering over and over, so on, and so forth. . .
--> For that matter, I was under the impression that this is still just meant to be a monster FAQ, not a full guide to end all guides for the game, anway. . .

Please do, 'cause I don't see a single purpose that GameFAQs boards has that my forum can't handle ten times better.
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#7caim1185Posted 4/17/2012 10:11:52 PM
@BMsirius : I'm curious , what format do you intend to use for the "ATT and gimmick " section ?
I'm afraid this section will be a bit redundant if we use the same "list 10 ability + alternatives " format .

And more importantly what monster we should include in the ATT section ?
Some of them are obvious (red chocobo,yakshini ....) but some other may be debatable .
#8MyBigToeHurtsPosted 4/17/2012 10:47:39 PM
I found recently many of you are speaking Ultros has having a saving grace but who here seriously would recommend him over another SYN like Purple in a fight, my tests revealed he is s-l-o-w even with minimal spells and he always cast the defensive crap on me first, making him in my opinion useless in DLC boss formats when I could choose a faster SYN.

I'm sorry I really don't believe I have anything to add about chocobo races. A long time ago someone made a white choco build that allowed me to annihilate much of the races and I found choco racing to be boring and was happy to finish up that part of the game. Still, good luck to you guys on those 2 builds as I am curious as to which one you settle on to destroy that portion of ffxiii-2 completely. :)

Every now and then I find certain gems...

Jumi's post on Flandit and "hundred fists" looks promising. Due to feral link screens locking the chain gauge on monsters due to animations and allowing us to get a few extra hits in I was often wondering about stuff like this.

It begged the question of which monster had the longest feral link animation or most hits within one for great damage vs. which team-mate has the strongest feral link. Although I am curious about that too...which monster does have the strongest feral link? Is it multi-hit?

If Lightning's feral was a nice addition to the game in quickly driving up the chain gauge (once staggered) to 999%, then with the stagger gauge at a sliver of resetting (usually when/if Meteor Javelin is used) if something's FL kept hitting for high damage or 99,999 (I'm sure depending on who/what we are hitting here) multiple times this could be a fun way to end a fight. Small discoveries like these has interested me lately. Thanks Jumi for creating them! And thanks to everyone for all the input.
#9Noah_IvaldiPosted 4/17/2012 11:06:21 PM
@MyBigToe: I wouldn't really recommend Ultros at all. There's just a "good" way to use him that makes him kinda' decent. . .

.That was Jolo's famous racing build.
Anyway, the chocobo racing aspect seems to be at an impasse. . . Tests aren't getting done, and, no matter what "best" setup we come up with, everyone seems so eager to add another hundred pages of work for the sake of every other choco-possibility in the game. . .

I have always known that FLs weren't all just gimmicks and have been trying to teach people that they can be used to improve DPS, some more than others, sometimes play a potentially massive strategic benefit, et cetera, but I was 100% ignored until Exe validated it from his experiences. . .

I do recall recently viewing a video in which someone used Omega's Wave Cannon to delay Gil from exiting stagger twice, allowing him to kill him in two staggers. The time could've used quite a bit of upgrades, but it wasn't bad. That was the same vid in which Gil was taken down with no SEN monster and not really a lot of items, which would have been further lessened if the guy had used MEDs in a paradigm at all and/or just played better.
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#10BMSirius(Topic Creator)Posted 4/17/2012 11:39:29 PM
@Noah: (i.e. somewhat easier to build)

An entirely incorrect interpretation of the purpose of the build. It's also not minimalist. The purpose is to reduce unnecessarily time spent on strategy gouging and item purchasing, NOT to reduce the time spent creating the build. Health Nut allows the player to ignore condition without losing the advantages of average-to-good condition. Using the most well-proven strategy instead of strategy gouging reduces a lot of extra time as well without removing effectiveness. Rocket Blast is the only debatable thing, but it would probably be wise to include on merit of just making the victories easier.

I just don't see the problem with it. It's not "minimalist", and it's not "any old build from the boards". It's the absolute culmination of a racing build without focusing on the unnecessary complexities that have minimal effect (strategy gouging, condition). While I like the stuff that's getting discovered as a result of the racing discussion, I admit to having lost interest in it as a whole because of the general direction it is going in.

Transerring to any other board than this one suffers the same problems; the board does not recieve traffic, we don't get any new minds, many experienced minds would not be willing to add another link to their list of daily visits, etc. etc. This is the absolute best place for this discussion regardless of its features or lack thereof.

@caim411: I do not actually know. Perhaps it is time to shift discussion to that; how are we going to approach the ATT and Gimmick sections? To be honest it was not part of my original plan to have any such sections - the guide as it stands right now is what my original goal was, and it is indeed complete. Even if I make ATT and Gimmick sections I'm gonna make a seperate .txt file for them. I propose that we begin by starting on the project initially proposed by several of the build discussors - the "best abilities for COM" etc. sections. The sections would look something like this:

COMMANDO:
Primary Abilities (Mandatory on all except under very specific circumstances):
Strength +36%
Magic +35%
Attack: ATB Charge II
Siphon Boost II
Role Resonance
Chain Bonus Boost II

Secondary Abilities (Good on most, pick on an individual basis):
HP +30%
Resist Physical +36%
Resist Magic +36%
Feral Speed II

Tertiary Abilities (Only good for extra slots, or under specific circumstances):
Resist Elements +36%
Critical: Haste
Auto-Bravery
Auto-Faith
Kill: ATB Charge
Gilfinder II

Needless to say every one of these would have descriptions. This is just an example/prototype.

@MyBigToe: Ultros merited discussion because he was DLC. People brought up Ultros again because Arthellinus missed the discussion and asked about it again. Is the the best? Absolutely not, but that really has nothing to do with the point. Builds for DLC characters are in demand so I focused on Ultros' positives. If you feel that the guide fails to explain Ultros' faults, please let me know and I'll add information on his slow cast speed to his purpose section.

Yes, small discoveries are very nice. I didn't quite realize the extent at which they froze the Stagger gauge until a Gilgamesh speedrun video showed me (mostly because it hasn't really mattered until Gilgamesh). It's pretty significant, although as far as I can tell it will only allow the humans to continue attacking if they were MID-STRING, and they won't start a new string in the middle of a Feral Link (at least the player character won't... maybe the NPC human will? I haven't tested much).
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"Stupid? How the hell can someone come to that conclusion? Serah is a ****ing state-of-the-art plot-seeking missile in this game." - TheSmartestBomb