Is this game as bad as XIII was?

#11MoonlightJustPosted 1/24/2013 11:17:39 AM
GenocideHeart posted...
MoonlightJust posted...
Yes and no. Overall XIII had a better, more comprehensive story. XIII-2 has more fun gameplay overall, and at least gives you a central, main villain to hate. He's terrible, a cut and paste definition of fanfiction villain sue, but at least he gets more screen time then the villains of XIII.

Overall? I'd say its more enjoyable if you are just interested in gameplay, and less if you are interested in story.


I wouldn't call Caius a mary sue. Or a villain, for that matter. He's an antagonist, but not really villainous.

Etro, now... if you had any respect for her this game will make you lose it.


*Chuckles* Man, I am not getting into this again. I have along, LONG list of what makes Caius a villain sue. If you want to like him thats fine, but that does not change the fact that he is fanfiction personified. That also doesn't change his villain status, and I am not even sure HOW you can argue that one. "I destroyed the world for the person I love!" hardly excuses destroying the world.
#12GenocideHeartPosted 1/24/2013 3:23:40 PM
MoonlightJust posted...
GenocideHeart posted...
MoonlightJust posted...
Yes and no. Overall XIII had a better, more comprehensive story. XIII-2 has more fun gameplay overall, and at least gives you a central, main villain to hate. He's terrible, a cut and paste definition of fanfiction villain sue, but at least he gets more screen time then the villains of XIII.

Overall? I'd say its more enjoyable if you are just interested in gameplay, and less if you are interested in story.


I wouldn't call Caius a mary sue. Or a villain, for that matter. He's an antagonist, but not really villainous.

Etro, now... if you had any respect for her this game will make you lose it.


*Chuckles* Man, I am not getting into this again. I have along, LONG list of what makes Caius a villain sue. If you want to like him thats fine, but that does not change the fact that he is fanfiction personified. That also doesn't change his villain status, and I am not even sure HOW you can argue that one. "I destroyed the world for the person I love!" hardly excuses destroying the world.


If it was just that it wouldn't be a problem, but do remember Caius was also immortal... and didn't really want to be. Had he been mortal, it'd have been far, far easier. He found himself stuck with a 'gift' he didn't want, and then Etro had to go and break time, which dramatically shortened the lifespan of ALL Yeuls across, what... 1200 years of Caius's immortal life? And then he had to watch them all die one after the other before any of them reached 20. Etro's 'gifts' sure suck...

More importantly, Cocoon would've fallen anyway. EVERY POSSIBLE TIMELINE, including the ones where Caius did nothing, resulted in him winning in the end. Because, you know? ETRO BROKE TIMESPACE by keeping people from their fate when they were supposed to instead be crystallized, and in doing so warped the future something fierce. Just look at what Hope accomplished - he was the prime instigator of Academia's existence. Had he been quietly crystallized the future wouldn't have changed so drastically.

So, really, no. Caius had already won thanks to Etro being a complete moron. He didn't HAVE to do anything, any future resulted in his victory. He only got involved because he wanted Noel to kill him - and wanted to make damn sure Noel COULD kill him. That was literally the only reason he even got involved - he was already aware he'd win regardless, but he wanted to DIE.

He's insane, but he's not a villain. He's a textbook antagonist focused on Noel. Besides, the one who broke time and doomed the world was Etro. Well, Etro and, in part, Lightning who made things WORSE by tossing Noel in the past instead of letting him get splattered on the ground. Which in turn caused Serah's untimely death... nice job there, Lightning.

Bottom line, if Caius is a villain, so are Lightning and Etro, who did nearly as much damage to the timeline with their own interference as he did. And all three did so with the best of intentions - Caius for Yeul, Lightning for Serah, Etro for the XIII party. Too bad Hell's road is paved with this kind of good intentions...

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#13John325Posted 1/31/2013 9:43:43 PM
From: GenocideHeart | #012
ETRO BROKE TIMESPACE by keeping people from their fate when they were supposed to instead be crystallized, and in doing so warped the future something fierce.


I thought the whole paradox thing was because "someone who was supposed to have returned with them did not" to paraphrase Yeul. The way I understood it, Etro reaching into the world from Valhalla to free them from crystal (which was supposed to happen) allowed Chaos to leak into the world and grab Lighting. Etro's only options were to seal the chaos off (and Lightning with it) or let it flood into the world. Lightning's deletion is what changed the future. Judging by what we know of Chaos, it seems safe to say that it is not a predictable factor in time/fate, and Etro had no idea that her actions would allow it to interfere with the future.

Etro is also the one who initially turned Fang and Vanille into crystal pre XIII, and no time distortion resulted from that action.

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#14GenocideHeartPosted 2/1/2013 8:36:00 AM
John325 posted...
From: GenocideHeart | #012
ETRO BROKE TIMESPACE by keeping people from their fate when they were supposed to instead be crystallized, and in doing so warped the future something fierce.


I thought the whole paradox thing was because "someone who was supposed to have returned with them did not" to paraphrase Yeul. The way I understood it, Etro reaching into the world from Valhalla to free them from crystal (which was supposed to happen) allowed Chaos to leak into the world and grab Lighting. Etro's only options were to seal the chaos off (and Lightning with it) or let it flood into the world. Lightning's deletion is what changed the future. Judging by what we know of Chaos, it seems safe to say that it is not a predictable factor in time/fate, and Etro had no idea that her actions would allow it to interfere with the future.

Etro is also the one who initially turned Fang and Vanille into crystal pre XIII, and no time distortion resulted from that action.


The problem with that theory is that Caius flat out disproves it by blatantly telling you exactly which event caused Yeul to start having rampant visions. And he would know, since he is the one tasked with remembering every last one of the seeress's visions. He has no reason to lie either because in this case the truth hurts a lot more than a lie, and Yeul also confirms that was the case. Etro directly intervened to keep the party from crystallizing, but unlike when Fang and Vanille were crystallized, some of the party became relevant forces in the world - ESPECIALLY Hope, without whom Academia and Augusta Tower would never have existed to begin with. What Hope accomplished was huge and affected the timeline significantly more than anything else... and when the change is that huge, then paradoxes pop up.

Lightning ended up swept away in a paradox, as well - but Etro used the last of her strength and plucked her out of it before she could end up like everyone else who gets sucked in a paradox. She wouldn't have returned either way, but in one case she'd have been deader than dead, while in this case, while she's been removed from the timeline, she's still alive - for a given value of 'alive'.

There's precedent for a change in time causing people to be deleted from the timeline. Remember Paddra Ruins? The paradox created by the past Yeul when she sealed up Ugallu? Had Etro not saved Lightning from the paradox wave, she'd have probably become a Ruby of Grief, too...

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#15theofficefan99Posted 2/1/2013 4:31:33 PM
XIII wasn't the holy grail of gaming, but it was better than this turd, which is obviously nothing more than a shameless, lazy cash-in, and people who defend this game honestly have no taste.
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#16John325Posted 2/1/2013 9:55:15 PM
From: GenocideHeart | #014
Etro directly intervened to keep the party from crystallizing, but unlike when Fang and Vanille were crystallized, some of the party became relevant forces in the world - ESPECIALLY Hope, without whom Academia and Augusta Tower would never have existed to begin with. What Hope accomplished was huge and affected the timeline significantly more than anything else... and when the change is that huge, then paradoxes pop up.


If Fang and Vanille hadn't turned to crystal, they would have entirely destroyed Cocoon as Ragnarok before XIII ever started, though. That seems pretty significant. I dunno. It seems pretty messed up if the goddess is powerless to act on the world without causing a paradox.

Yeul says earlier, "Someone who was meant to survive did not come home." Yeul has the eyes of Etro, meaning that her memories of altered timelines aren't erased, the same as Serah. Shouldn't she know that none of them were meant to survive?

Then we have Lightning's version of events, "The events of that day tore open a portal to another world. (Back in the scene.) Get off me! (narrating) And from the depths of the rift appeared a darkness that had no place in our world-- an irresistible force that dragged me away to the edge of time. The screams of the dying had unlocked a gate-- A door that led directly to the throne of the goddess. Etro waited beyond the gate, and
sent her miracles to the human world. But a creeping darkness slipped through, and threatened to devour our reality. Etro closed the gate, and warped the timeline. Time's flow was altered, and existence itself was distorted. I was lost. The darkness caught me in its embrace, and wrote me out of history."

That makes it sound like the existence of Chaos in the world and the act of sealing it and Lightning beyond the gate is what warped time.

It is true that Caius says "Long ago, the goddess Etro rescued you and your friends from your fate as l'Cie. For you, it was a miracle. For Yeul, a sentence of death. In that moment, immutable history was transformed." However, he doesn't say that their rescue is the what caused the distortion, just that it was "in that moment," which would still be accurate if Lightnings being sealed off with the Chaos was the cause. If it were that cut and dry, why not just go to that point in time and kill them so they can have no influence on events? I feel like he would be more accusatory toward Serah if her very existence was part of the problem.

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#17GenocideHeartPosted 2/2/2013 4:06:39 AM
But Caius can't timetravel. He communicates with his past selves from Valhalla, but he lacks the gift to move from era to era like Serah does. So he can't go there regardless.

More importantly, being turned to crystal =/= dying, remember? Fang and Vanille are most definitely still alive. Killing the party means they may never be released from their state in the future (something clearly possible even without the Goddess). It might break the timeline even worse.

And going by the logic that someone meant to survive didn't return, then that could apply to Sazh and Dajh, as well, who are also stranded in time. In fact, it may apply MORE to them than Lightning, because they were sucked inside a paradox shortly after the ending events and before Serah's own adventure started - which is usually invariably fatal, judging by how everyone else who ends up in there is eventually deleted.

And if you note, Yeul doesn't say that 'someone meant to survive' was Lightning, or that it happened that exact day. She is very generic in her statement, and Serah jumps to that conclusion because it's the most obvious to her... but everyone forgets poor Sazh. Literally. It's like he was removed even from the players' memories...

Also, back in the past it was just Fang making up Ragnarok IIRC, since Vanille refused to get involved, if you recall. Fang managed to take a CHUNK out of Cocoon, but she wasn't strong enough to outright destroy it in that imperfect form - both were needed, Fang alone wasn't enough, which is why she couldn't destroy Cocoon.

Incidentally, Vanille should've become a Cie'th, since she ignored her Focus and ran off. Being crystallized kept that from happening, but disabled her all the same.

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#18Cyb0rg_RaidenPosted 2/2/2013 10:24:03 PM
Can't be as bad because XIII was never bad in the first place.

If you thought XIII was that bad though then in all honesty you probably wouldn't appreciate XIII-2 at all.