If you change the future... Don't understand? (ending spoilers?)

#21ArmaLeyvatenPosted 2/3/2013 8:25:02 PM
lightdragoon88 posted...
Do not put real world science into this.


Who's to say real world science has it right in the first place? Last time I checked I never heard of the guy who went back, or for that matter forward, in time to see if it changed anything.....unless, they already went back, or forward, in time and stopped the progress of time travel, thus eliminating any knowledge of it in the first place.

*brain explodes*
#22GenocideHeartPosted 2/4/2013 1:45:41 PM
lightdragoon88 posted...

There is no two timelines, only one. The second timeline is a gameplay feature. Alyssa is gone, but for gameplay she stays in the other areas.


..."for gameplay"? Please elaborate on what said gameplay would be since all Alyssa does is stand around and repeat the same stock phrases over and over and over again.

This is either connected to something that happened between Yaschas 01XAF and Academia 4XXAF, or just plain laziness, since if it really was tied to her dream, then solving the paradox of Alyssa's survival was meant to cause her to die during the Purges, like she was supposed to. And the Purges happened waaaaay before the whole game even began, meaning she should have retroactively disappeared from everywhere at once. ESPECIALLY the modified timeline Noel and Serah created.

Change the future and you change the past, remember? We see repeated instances of actions in the future modifying the past, so why the hell should Alyssa be any different? At the very least, she should have been gone entirely from the main timeline (Bresha 005AF, Yaschas 01XAF), if it was really connected to her dream, which was really her original fate from the unchanged timeline before Etro had to go and mess it all up. Her still being there is either utter laziness (since she doesn't do anything of note ever in those periods beyond 'Welcome to Cornelia' and removing her character model would be completely trivial), or a sign that something else happened to her after Yaschas 01XAF but before Academia 4XXAF.
(also, the paradox that caused her survival was the original one (ie, the party being saved by Etro), while whatever paradox you solve that causes her to vanish is fairly obviously another - she explicitly mentions 'in the future you want to create, I no longer exist'.)
---
**PS3 ID: GenocideHeart - Vita ID: VR-Jaguarandi**
"You forgot to buy Warp Wire, didn't you?" --Nevius
#23AshphantomPosted 2/4/2013 11:53:43 PM
Alternatively you can just ignore the entire concept they tried to put in and simply go with the oracle drives causing it. When they do something in the future, the farseers saw it happen, meaning it's in the oracle drive, meaning Hope or someone sees it, meaning the past can change, thus changing the future can change the past.

Anything else makes no sense and is just some bs Squarenix pulled out of its ass.
#24SoeroahPosted 2/5/2013 3:13:11 AM
Imagine this:

It is currently Year 0.


In Year 0, there is a fire prevented by Bill, a time traveller from Year 2.

In Year 1, time travel is discovered.

In Year 2, Bill goes back in time to prevent the fire in Year 0.


Now we introduce a change to the timeline in the form of Bob.


In Year 5, Bob goes back in time to Year -10 to kill Bill.

This means there is a fire in Year 0, as Bill was not around to stop it.


Now, if someone in Year 0 were to learn what Bob would do with the time machine, they may stop time travel from being discovered. By preventing the time machine from being created, Bill is unable to go back in time and stop the fire, leading to a change to the future altering the past.

In the timeline with no time travel;

In Year -10, Bill lives.

In Year 0 there is a fire.

In Year 1, nothing happens.

In Year 2, Bill stays at home.

In Year 5, Bob stays at home.


So, by changing the future (so time travel doesn't exist) no one in the future is able to go into the past and cause what occurred, leading to the past altering as if no one time travelled.


It's a bit confusing but it makes a degree of sense. Basically, imagine if a person who time travelled and mess up the timeline was born 500 years from now, but we killed him as a baby. He wouldn't have grown up to go back in time, so anything he did in the past (under certain theories of time travel) wouldn't have occurred.
---
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQ9Km7WW2aE
Best console war summary ever. TL;DR version at 2:05.
#25AshphantomPosted 2/5/2013 5:43:18 PM
From: Soeroah | Posted: 2/5/2013 5:13:11 AM | #024
It's a bit confusing but it makes a degree of sense. Basically, imagine if a person who time travelled and mess up the timeline was born 500 years from now, but we killed him as a baby. He wouldn't have grown up to go back in time, so anything he did in the past (under certain theories of time travel) wouldn't have occurred.

Right, but the only way this could happen is if somehow the person from year 0 were to get the information of what Bob would do.

Again, the only reason the future can change the past in this game is because when the future is changed, the recordings on the oracle drive are changed along with it, because the farseers see a new, different timeline (This is proven by the fact that whenever they change the timeline Sarah gets the visions). In any other case, the future could never change the past, the only reason it can do so in this game is because there is an element of seeing into the future added as well.
---
http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/8014/swordfight.png
http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p165/Ashphantom/Ash/PhantomBraveV6.png
#26lightdragoon88Posted 2/6/2013 7:29:47 AM
GenocideHeart posted...
lightdragoon88 posted...

There is no two timelines, only one. The second timeline is a gameplay feature. Alyssa is gone, but for gameplay she stays in the other areas.


..."for gameplay"? Please elaborate on what said gameplay would be since all Alyssa does is stand around and repeat the same stock phrases over and over and over again.

This is either connected to something that happened between Yaschas 01XAF and Academia 4XXAF, or just plain laziness, since if it really was tied to her dream, then solving the paradox of Alyssa's survival was meant to cause her to die during the Purges, like she was supposed to. And the Purges happened waaaaay before the whole game even began, meaning she should have retroactively disappeared from everywhere at once. ESPECIALLY the modified timeline Noel and Serah created.

Change the future and you change the past, remember? We see repeated instances of actions in the future modifying the past, so why the hell should Alyssa be any different? At the very least, she should have been gone entirely from the main timeline (Bresha 005AF, Yaschas 01XAF), if it was really connected to her dream, which was really her original fate from the unchanged timeline before Etro had to go and mess it all up. Her still being there is either utter laziness (since she doesn't do anything of note ever in those periods beyond 'Welcome to Cornelia' and removing her character model would be completely trivial), or a sign that something else happened to her after Yaschas 01XAF but before Academia 4XXAF.
(also, the paradox that caused her survival was the original one (ie, the party being saved by Etro), while whatever paradox you solve that causes her to vanish is fairly obviously another - she explicitly mentions 'in the future you want to create, I no longer exist'.)




You are really over analyzing this and trying to find things that aren't there.
---
LIFE IS A BEAUTY HOWL!
#27GenocideHeartPosted 2/6/2013 9:49:17 AM
lightdragoon88 posted...




You are really over analyzing this and trying to find things that aren't there.


You seem to forget Noel. His memories keep changing actively BECAUSE the timeline is being changed, and his memories adjust accordingly. That means that yes, affecting the future DOES retroactively change the entirety of the past, not just select spots. Initially, Noel says that Cocoon fell because of a great war (ie, the Atlas paradox ending). When you undo that, his memories change and he mentions the Cocoon pillar was eroded (the Royal Ripeness doing it, this time). Then you undo THAT again, and once again, his memories change, and now he just remembers that Cocoon fell and no one knew why (this time, it was Caius interfering).

Additionally, paradoxes can directly affect the past just by *appearing* (see Atlas), so if you solve them, the whole timeline changes. This is a fact, as once you cause Atlas's paradox to vanish, the Final War no longer happens because, ironically, it was a stable time paradox - Atlas was created based on its own tech from when it appeared in the past, and the Final War happened BECAUSE it appeared there. When you caused it to vanish before the Academy could fully analyze it, the tech to build it in the first place vanished with it, meaning it never existed in the first place - the same way Proto fal'Cie Adam was finally taken out.

All of this cleanly points to the fact that yes, Alyssa SHOULD have vanished from all time periods in the currently active timeline if the reason for her vanishing was her survival in the Purges being retconned. The fact she didn't points to something ELSE having happened. Which makes sense as the documents about the Time Sphere mention it's experimental tech and very dangerous. You could easily have solved a paradox that caused Alyssa to not survive the trip to the future, and it actually explains why she's still there in the past even in the active timeline.
---
**PS3 ID: GenocideHeart - Vita ID: VR-Jaguarandi**
"You forgot to buy Warp Wire, didn't you?" --Nevius
#28_EggplantWizardPosted 2/7/2013 5:32:23 AM
Soeroah posted...
Imagine this:

It is currently Year 0.


In Year 0, there is a fire prevented by Bill, a time traveller from Year 2.

In Year 1, time travel is discovered.

In Year 2, Bill goes back in time to prevent the fire in Year 0.


Now we introduce a change to the timeline in the form of Bob.


In Year 5, Bob goes back in time to Year -10 to kill Bill.

This means there is a fire in Year 0, as Bill was not around to stop it.


Now, if someone in Year 0 were to learn what Bob would do with the time machine, they may stop time travel from being discovered. By preventing the time machine from being created, Bill is unable to go back in time and stop the fire, leading to a change to the future altering the past.

In the timeline with no time travel;

In Year -10, Bill lives.

In Year 0 there is a fire.

In Year 1, nothing happens.

In Year 2, Bill stays at home.

In Year 5, Bob stays at home.


So, by changing the future (so time travel doesn't exist) no one in the future is able to go into the past and cause what occurred, leading to the past altering as if no one time travelled.


It's a bit confusing but it makes a degree of sense. Basically, imagine if a person who time travelled and mess up the timeline was born 500 years from now, but we killed him as a baby. He wouldn't have grown up to go back in time, so anything he did in the past (under certain theories of time travel) wouldn't have occurred.


What you described is still the past changing the future, not the other way around.
You mention a couple instances of traveling back in time, but make no mention of traveling forward. Nice try, though.
---
Currently playing Borderlands, Doom, The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion, Final Fantasy IX, Kirby Super Star, Minecraft, and Secret of Mana.
#29MediccaPosted 2/19/2013 4:56:37 PM
Imagine at year 500, a monster appears from year 600 via time travel and kills half of the world's population.

Lets say this is the time line:

500: half of world's people die.

590: present day

600: monster will time travel to year 500.

Since it is year 590 now, year 500 is the past.

Now from 590, I can time travel to year 599, and kill the monster. Thus the monster could have never went back to year 500.

Hence, by changing the future (changing year 599 from 590), I've changed the past where the world didn't lose half of its population in year 500.

:-)
#30GenocideHeartPosted 2/19/2013 5:13:14 PM(edited)
Medicca posted...
Imagine at year 500, a monster appears from year 600 via time travel and kills half of the world's population.

Lets say this is the time line:

500: half of world's people die.

590: present day

600: monster will time travel to year 500.

Since it is year 590 now, year 500 is the past.

Now from 590, I can time travel to year 599, and kill the monster. Thus the monster could have never went back to year 500.

Hence, by changing the future (changing year 599 from 590), I've changed the past where the world didn't lose half of its population in year 500.

:-)


You could also look at BlazBlue's plot. The plot is a semi-stable time loop that's slowly degenerating due to the minute changes each loop causes. Basically the Black Beast appeared years in the past and was defeated by the hero Bloodedge, who is actually Ragna in the 'present time' of the game after he time-traveled... but Ragna was actually 'born' from the Black Beast merging with Bloodedge, and is destined to BECOME the Black Beast. If Ragna was killed in the present, the Black Beast in the past could never exist... which would change the entire timeline because of that. In this case, the future changes the past, because PART of the future exists in the past. And when that part goes missing, a paradox happens and everything falls apart.

That's why when you solve paradoxes in the future, the past may change. Remember, items, monsters and people are being displaced BOTH ways in the timeline, not just from the past to the future. There's a diary in Bresha 005AF which belongs to a researcher... but is from the future. What she does in the future is actually shaped by the info her own future self wrote down... so her future actions influenced what she did in the past.

Paradoxes are pretty much this, and resolving them puts things back where they belong.
---
**PS3 ID: GenocideHeart - Vita ID: VR-Jaguarandi**
"You forgot to buy Warp Wire, didn't you?" --Nevius