If you change the future... Don't understand? (ending spoilers?)

#31VegerunksPosted 2/19/2013 9:10:23 PM
TC The whole concept of a Paradox doesn't make sense... Proto Fal'cie Adam is a good example of that. He was controlling AI to convince humans to create him from the future where he did not yet exist.
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#32SoeroahPosted 2/19/2013 9:51:27 PM
_EggplantWizard posted...
Soeroah posted...
Imagine this:

It is currently Year 0.


In Year 0, there is a fire prevented by Bill, a time traveller from Year 2.

In Year 1, time travel is discovered.

In Year 2, Bill goes back in time to prevent the fire in Year 0.


Now we introduce a change to the timeline in the form of Bob.


In Year 5, Bob goes back in time to Year -10 to kill Bill.

This means there is a fire in Year 0, as Bill was not around to stop it.


Now, if someone in Year 0 were to learn what Bob would do with the time machine, they may stop time travel from being discovered. By preventing the time machine from being created, Bill is unable to go back in time and stop the fire, leading to a change to the future altering the past.

In the timeline with no time travel;

In Year -10, Bill lives.

In Year 0 there is a fire.

In Year 1, nothing happens.

In Year 2, Bill stays at home.

In Year 5, Bob stays at home.


So, by changing the future (so time travel doesn't exist) no one in the future is able to go into the past and cause what occurred, leading to the past altering as if no one time travelled.


It's a bit confusing but it makes a degree of sense. Basically, imagine if a person who time travelled and mess up the timeline was born 500 years from now, but we killed him as a baby. He wouldn't have grown up to go back in time, so anything he did in the past (under certain theories of time travel) wouldn't have occurred.


What you described is still the past changing the future, not the other way around.
You mention a couple instances of traveling back in time, but make no mention of traveling forward. Nice try, though.


True, but wouldn't being in Year 0 and preventing time travel from being discovered in Year 1 be 'changing the future', leading to a timeline where, since time travel doesn't exist, the past is altered?

Whether the person in Year 0 time travelled forward or took the long way, whether they visited the future for a few moments or saw a vision, they change the future by preventing the discovery of time travel.

All points on a timeline are simultaneously past, present and future, depending on your perspective. Travelling forward doesn't make a change to the future any more valid than going back into the past and changing it, since from the far future's perspective all the time shenanigans took place in the past anyway. A change in our past or our present changes our future, just as simply as a change to our future does. The issue is we don't know if we can change the future in the present because the very act of learning what the future is like in the first place would be akin to travelling into the past.

If it makes you feel better, assume the person in Year 0 travelled forward three months to prevent time travel from being discovered in Year 1.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQ9Km7WW2aE
Best console war summary ever. TL;DR version at 2:05.
#33_EggplantWizardPosted 2/19/2013 10:45:07 PM
Soeroah posted...
True, but wouldn't being in Year 0 and preventing time travel from being discovered in Year 1 be 'changing the future', leading to a timeline where, since time travel doesn't exist, the past is altered?

Whether the person in Year 0 time travelled forward or took the long way, whether they visited the future for a few moments or saw a vision, they change the future by preventing the discovery of time travel.

All points on a timeline are simultaneously past, present and future, depending on your perspective. Travelling forward doesn't make a change to the future any more valid than going back into the past and changing it, since from the far future's perspective all the time shenanigans took place in the past anyway. A change in our past or our present changes our future, just as simply as a change to our future does. The issue is we don't know if we can change the future in the present because the very act of learning what the future is like in the first place would be akin to travelling into the past.

If it makes you feel better, assume the person in Year 0 travelled forward three months to prevent time travel from being discovered in Year 1.


OK. I see what you're saying. The concept of changing the future to change the past is just so... I don't know... odd.
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Currently playing Borderlands, Doom, The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion, Final Fantasy IX, King's Field, Minecraft, and Secret of Mana.
#34thinkb4uspeakPosted 2/19/2013 11:05:23 PM(edited)
the story defies all logic.. just enjoy the gameplay... as a completionist this game has its perks.. other than that.. i walked away to relieve myself during cutscenes and pretty much skipped the majority of the cutscenes.
#35SoeroahPosted 2/20/2013 1:12:16 AM
_EggplantWizard posted...
Soeroah posted...
True, but wouldn't being in Year 0 and preventing time travel from being discovered in Year 1 be 'changing the future', leading to a timeline where, since time travel doesn't exist, the past is altered?

Whether the person in Year 0 time travelled forward or took the long way, whether they visited the future for a few moments or saw a vision, they change the future by preventing the discovery of time travel.

All points on a timeline are simultaneously past, present and future, depending on your perspective. Travelling forward doesn't make a change to the future any more valid than going back into the past and changing it, since from the far future's perspective all the time shenanigans took place in the past anyway. A change in our past or our present changes our future, just as simply as a change to our future does. The issue is we don't know if we can change the future in the present because the very act of learning what the future is like in the first place would be akin to travelling into the past.

If it makes you feel better, assume the person in Year 0 travelled forward three months to prevent time travel from being discovered in Year 1.


OK. I see what you're saying. The concept of changing the future to change the past is just so... I don't know... odd.


Yeah, it took me a while (and watching a completely unrelated show) to understand how it could work in a twisted temporal way.

I enjoy discussing logic behind time travel, though, so I guess maybe I'm just more willing to iron out the details than most who play this game. The overuse of the term 'paradox' still bothers me though. The idea of changing the past by changing the future, though, I quite like =P
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQ9Km7WW2aE
Best console war summary ever. TL;DR version at 2:05.
#36Destroyer_MagePosted 2/20/2013 4:35:36 AM
^Are you perhaps talking about "Steinsgate"?
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With each passing day, the world finds new and exciting ways to kill a man. -Balthier
#37SoeroahPosted 2/20/2013 7:29:46 PM
Destroyer_Mage posted...
^Are you perhaps talking about "Steinsgate"?


Yes, I am, in fact.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQ9Km7WW2aE
Best console war summary ever. TL;DR version at 2:05.
#38VegerunksPosted 2/20/2013 9:12:42 PM
Soeroah posted...


Yeah, it took me a while (and watching a completely unrelated show) to understand how it could work in a twisted temporal way.

I enjoy discussing logic behind time travel, though, so I guess maybe I'm just more willing to iron out the details than most who play this game. The overuse of the term 'paradox' still bothers me though. The idea of changing the past by changing the future, though, I quite like =P


It's not really an overuse of the term though. Most of them REALLY are Paradoxes.
An Atlas going back in time causing the Creation of the Atlases.

Adam controlling machines in the past to create Adam.

The only one of these that you can't say for sure is a paradox is the Royal Ripeness, which it's considered a paradox because those Flan don't belong there whether they're from the future or past.(The steppes are ??? AF so they could be before or after 300 AF)

A "paradox" is something is self-contradicting A good example of The adam/Atlas... "The following Sentence is true. The Preceding Sentence is false." Paradoxes lead to an endless So most of the time it is used correctly not really over used.
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Xbox 360 GamerTag: HolyKnight22
PSN: CrimsonDivide
#39SoeroahPosted 2/20/2013 10:08:26 PM
Vegerunks posted...
Soeroah posted...


Yeah, it took me a while (and watching a completely unrelated show) to understand how it could work in a twisted temporal way.

I enjoy discussing logic behind time travel, though, so I guess maybe I'm just more willing to iron out the details than most who play this game. The overuse of the term 'paradox' still bothers me though. The idea of changing the past by changing the future, though, I quite like =P


It's not really an overuse of the term though. Most of them REALLY are Paradoxes.
An Atlas going back in time causing the Creation of the Atlases.

Adam controlling machines in the past to create Adam.

The only one of these that you can't say for sure is a paradox is the Royal Ripeness, which it's considered a paradox because those Flan don't belong there whether they're from the future or past.(The steppes are ??? AF so they could be before or after 300 AF)

A "paradox" is something is self-contradicting A good example of The adam/Atlas... "The following Sentence is true. The Preceding Sentence is false." Paradoxes lead to an endless So most of the time it is used correctly not really over used.


Adam I agree with, Atlas I admittedly forgot. It just feels the main ones I remember are things like the sun being eclipsed centuries early is somehow a paradox, or sections of an area being unavailable because of a paradox effect.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQ9Km7WW2aE
Best console war summary ever. TL;DR version at 2:05.
#40ArmaLeyvatenPosted 2/20/2013 11:04:15 PM
I think you meant "this statement is false." :P