Monster builds after a year

#21destrian522Posted 2/2/2013 12:42:53 PM
xnoelz posted...
destrian522 posted...
Chichu, Rav Lightning, and Cloudburst are still top tier. I'm not sure that Valfodr can be considered top tier, but I'm not the best person to ask. Snow definitely isn't top tier. I suspect Cactuar makes the cut.

Was Omega ever considered top tier? I don't remember that one.


COM Lightning's uncapped damage

It's good. I didn't mention it because she was already on the "now" list.
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#22MightyGebPosted 2/2/2013 7:12:26 PM
From: GenocideHeart | #020
Arthellinus posted...
I should have added "efficiently" to my explanation. We're talking about things like two-staggering Gilgamesh, one-staggering Snow, one-staggering Valfodr 70, and so on.


To be honest, I don't care about minmaxing. I'll take reliability over efficiency anytime, even if the reliable choice is the slow one. Slow and steady may not win the race, but it doesn't end up splattered on the wall at the slightest mistake, either. That may color my opinion on monsters...


Those efficient strategies are pretty easily replicated. It's pure speed runs that are risky and, last I checked, they generally favour Ally: KO with Lightning - we're not expecting everyone to go out of their way to do that. It's also fact that all the top tier monsters already fall into the reliability bracket you prefer. That was stated in the original definition.

If anything Omega, as a standalone monster, is more reliant on min-maxing then any potential candidate, so you automatically shouldn't care for it. It is also less reliable, and generally inferior to Lightning, in every aspect I can think of off the top of my head. It's not bad, but it has no real place. It is definitely high tier, but in no way top tier.
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#23GenocideHeartPosted 2/2/2013 7:22:54 PM
Well, my strategy generally is 'enter battle with Circuitron Feral Link at max, use it, Paradigm Shift to group with Omega, beat face'. So I guess I like him simply because the way I use him is clear-cut and simple. Sure, that strategy works with others, but I honestly find that it seems to work best for me with Omega. Maybe it's just a matter of RNG... I don't even minmax Omega, I just build him however I feel like, although I'll admit my choice skills include Strength +...
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#24MightyGebPosted 2/2/2013 9:17:30 PM
Erm... if that's the strategy you used with Lightning too, you've probably answered why she Ruins a lot...

From: GenocideHeart | #053
Well, my strategy generally is 'enter battle with Circuitron Feral Link at max, use it, Paradigm Shift to group with Omega, beat face'. So I guess I like him simply because the way I use him is clear-cut and simple.


Circuitron FL is something like Faith, Enthunder and Veil/Vigilance (both?). That's a magic boost and no strength boost. It doesn't even benefit Omega that much. You're showing a very limited knowledge of what you're talking about, so I have little reason to actually take note of what you're saying.
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#25GenocideHeartPosted 2/3/2013 10:26:40 AM(edited)
Faith, Enthunder, Veil and Vigilance, as well as healing all wound damage and a little HP. Primarily, I use it for the last three buffs - Vigilance lets Omega interrupt enemies with its spam and makes it less likely he'll be interrupted himself (assuming it still works like it did in XIII, which seems to be the case), Veil makes it less likely it'll be debuffed (which is very annoying when I'm farming), and Enthunder is very, very handy when I'm farming specific monsters. Faith is more or less irrelevant for Omega - it's there for Noel and Serah, who both have use for it.

My strategy with Lightning was different, though - I relied largely on building up a stagger as fast as possible with RAV/RAV/RAV or RAV/RAV/COM, then launching the enemy and keeping it airborne as much as possible, and since Lightning has Auto-Bravery, I didn't have to buff her strength and instead focused on keeping her at peak performance and activating Scourge. Problem is she will often Ruin even when I DON'T put Faith on her, which is fairly ridiculous since I made sure to build her all-Power to keep her using her physicals.

For what it's worth, when using Lightning my paradigm pack is Lightning, Nabaat, Pulse Gladiator.
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#26achilleszeroPosted 2/3/2013 12:37:48 PM
GenocideHeart posted...
Faith, Enthunder, Veil and Vigilance, as well as healing all wound damage and a little HP. Primarily, I use it for the last three buffs - Vigilance lets Omega interrupt enemies with its spam and makes it less likely he'll be interrupted himself (assuming it still works like it did in XIII, which seems to be the case), Veil makes it less likely it'll be debuffed (which is very annoying when I'm farming), and Enthunder is very, very handy when I'm farming specific monsters. Faith is more or less irrelevant for Omega - it's there for Noel and Serah, who both have use for it.

My strategy with Lightning was different, though - I relied largely on building up a stagger as fast as possible with RAV/RAV/RAV or RAV/RAV/COM, then launching the enemy and keeping it airborne as much as possible, and since Lightning has Auto-Bravery, I didn't have to buff her strength and instead focused on keeping her at peak performance and activating Scourge. Problem is she will often Ruin even when I DON'T put Faith on her, which is fairly ridiculous since I made sure to build her all-Power to keep her using her physicals.

For what it's worth, when using Lightning my paradigm pack is Lightning, Nabaat, Pulse Gladiator.


Worst paradigm pack ever. Well not really but its almost as if your trying to hinder Lightning while making Omega good. At least Omega gets Enthunder. Faith also at least boosts its Blitz and ravage, which are magic based. You dont really have a way to boost Lightning not that she really needs it to farm fodder. If thats your strat with Lightning, Im not really sure why she would be favoring Ruin but I'd wager there's a reason other than "bad AI".
#27GenocideHeartPosted 2/3/2013 2:40:11 PM(edited)
Is there any particular reason besides 'RAAAR SABOTEURS SUCK' to say my Paradigm Pack is bad? Pulse Gladiator isn't there to defend Lightning, it's there to keep Noel and Serah alive, since they're a lot squishier than Lightning is, I'm farming Proto-Behemoths for a crystal (a beyond tedious task, I might add, but I have what you could call Catch 'Em All Syndrome), and if they die it doesn't matter how h4x Lightning is, since it's instant game over/retry. And I haven't gotten Snow's crystal yet after 30 tries, so don't gimme that 'Snow is a better SEN' spiel. Pulse Gladiator does its job and does it well.

As for Nabaat, she's not always in the pack - she's currently in it because I found her debuffs useful, but her place is normally taken by either Blue Chocobo or Cloudburst, depending on what I feel like using, since my default strategy with a V-Lightning paradigm, as mentioned, is stagger, launch and kill in a single stagger. But I found myself consistently having issues with how much damage the Proto-Behemoths can do, so I chose a safer approach.

For comparison, the paradigm pack I use with Omega is Omega, Circuitron and Flanitor (although Flanitor has rather low HP).

EDIT: What the hell happened to my post? Everything after 'Circuitron and' was cut off.

With that said, the above are just my personal preferences which I end up having the best results with. Others' mileage may vary, so yeah...
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#28MightyGebPosted 2/3/2013 3:24:54 PM
Well the Lightning pack has little offensive presence, something that BOTH XIII games favour. You have limited yourself two Ravagers maximum, there are no offensive buffs - one-time Bravery on one member doesn't exactly count - and Nabaat/Pulse Gladiator effectively do nothing ever. Nabaat's unique debuffs are basically useless and Gladiator just stands there mostly - it does its job well, but that job is not in demand.

You don't even need to stagger Proto-behemoth. I don't remember my exact approach, but it's a pretty quick battle. Also you said it's tedious to farm - you are either running through Academia repeatedly to encounter it OR using some ridiculously long battle strategy - probably both. You can farm in one visit without ever moving from a single spot.
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#29ArmaLeyvatenPosted 2/3/2013 3:48:30 PM
1)There's no reason beyond "Raar Saboteurs suck" that's necessary to describe the uselessness of monster Saboteurs. Serah and Noel are all the Saboteurs you will ever need for anything, DLC or not. Nabaat WAS cool, but there are always faster, better strategies for any fight where she would be effective at all.

2)Auto-Bravery only works if you start the battle with that particular monster. That's why SYNs have their "Auto-buff" setups leaving COMs and RAVs to have other, much more useful, passives.

3)Obviously you missed the point I was trying to make earlier about Lightning versus airborne enemies. If the particular monster RESISTS physical attacks but takes at least NORMAL damage from magic she will default to Ruin REGARDLESS of how you built her and present buffs/debuffs. The same behavior would be present from magic COMs fighting a monster that RESISTS magic, but takes NORMAL damage from physical attacks.

4)Proto-Behemoth, as MightyGeb said, is not at all hard to kill. You can just build up the stagger gauge until he hits ~60% hp then straight up COM/COM/COM him down. No Sentinels needlessly extending the battle.
#30GenocideHeartPosted 2/3/2013 4:38:14 PM
Arma: while it's true that some monsters resist physicals, Lightning has Armorbreaker, which does make phys resistance more or less trivial for her. That's why it's kind of strange she'd default to Ruin when Armorbreaker lets her do comparable damage to those monsters regardless.

More importantly, I've seen her default to Attack instead of Ruin against phys resistant, normal magic damage opponents... if they're GROUNDED. It's only when I launch them that she tends to start spamming Ruin. That's what stumps me - she tends to do it just when I DON'T want her to, ie when I finally staggered and launched an opponent, or when a light opponent has been knocked in the air by Thundaga or a similar attack. It's not normal at all from what I understand, especially seeing how I built her with straight up physical damage in mind (all Power, aggressive infusions).

As for Auto-Bravery, when I use Lightning I start the battle with her (the default Paradigm is COM/RAV/COM when I just want to coast through battles quickly) - it's when using Omega that I tend to start with someone else (ie, Circuitron). I'm well aware that Auto-Bravery works only when starting the battle with the monster that has it, like other similar abilities.

Finally, regarding Saboteurs, I have better things for Serah and Noel to do than put them on SAB duty, since I can actually control them - like having Noel be the SYN, which he's actually good at unlike SAB, which is Serah's specialty anyway, and having Serah build the stagger gauge up quickly or spam mass-damage spells with that high MAG of hers... so I'm OK with letting monster SABs handle the debuff part. Noel and Serah may be able to do it, but it's a total waste to have them do it, with the notable exception being Yomi, where a poison strategy can work if all else fails (but there are better ways to beat Yomi, although noticeably less safe).

With that said, the final thing to mention is just a side note: that, in the end 'tiers' are an inherently flawed concept, as anyone who knows what he or she is doing can take a bottom tier character and make him or her as effective and efficient as a top tier one. With rare exceptions, tiers are more guidelines to easy-to-use characters than actual evaluations of strength - otherwise, to use a fighting game example, explain to me why Marvel vs. Capcom 2 notably has Magneto, Cable, Storm and Sentinel as the top tiers. Note: Nearly everyone has an infinite or instant kill combo in that game, some of them requiring even less time to execute than the top tiers (thus meaning less chances to escape it), but the 'Four Gods' are just plain the easiest to use, even if their effectiveness pales compared to a Dr. Doom trapping character, who can punish everything you can do for massive damage, or to Strider, who can literally 3HKO an opponent with one of the fastest, hardest to block combos in the game.

tl; dr version: if you find someone who isn't top tier and are comfortable with using them, forget about tiers and just go with them. Trying to use the 'popular' characters without being comfortable with them may result in you being more frustrated than a game warrants, and may actually make things harder for you than if you had a lower-tier character that you feel good about and are intimate with.

This is just my opinion, though. Don't take it as gospel, but it may warrant considering. There's a reason why I mained Tager in Blazblue Calamity Trigger instead of Jin, v-13 or Rachel... I felt more at home with Tager's high-risk high-damage grappling style than with Jin's icecar spam, v-13's sword spam or Rachel's magic spam, and can consistently beat Jins and v-13s with reasonable difficulty. But according to tiers, those three are top, while Tager is bottom of the barrel. Go figure... *shrug*
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