Monster builds after a year

#31MightyGebPosted 2/3/2013 6:01:58 PM(edited)
Personally I'm in the same boat as you when it tiers - my preferred characters in various things tend to be mid-tier or so. However, I don't think fighting game tiers can be reliably compared to this tier list.

Fighting tiers are made with PvP in mind, and the nature of the games themselves lead to them being much more unpredictable than this game. Also, all tier lists are made with different considerations and weighting of various factors. You said the Marvel tiers favoured easy to use characters. Tekken tiers, on the other hand, are made with near perfect play taken into account, ignoring ease of effective use. Kazuya IS a better character than Kuma, but player skill can make it seem otherwise.

This game does not have these elements. I can give you a strategy that will always win a given battle. There is little unpredictability involved. With that in mind, certain monsters clearly outclass other and thus any tiers that may be formed have clear meaning. For example, Lightning IS better than Omega, Cloudburst IS better than Circuitron and Chieftain IS all that is needed from a SEN plus more - these statements are true regardless of player, especially since they are AI-controlled.

Finally, regarding Saboteurs, I have better monsters to use in my paradigm pack when Noel and Serah do everything you ever want a SAB to do. Like having Yakshini be the SYN, which she's actually good at unlike Noel and Serah, who are entirely lacking in this department. Or having a RAV with higher chaining potential AND damage than Serah. Monster SYNs offer significantly more then SABs, so I'm ok with handling the debuff part myself. Noel and Serah may be able to handle buffs, but it's a total waste to have them do it, NO exceptions.

Also Noel has everything you need from a SAB, AoE isn't good.
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#32achilleszeroPosted 2/3/2013 10:51:02 PM
GenocideHeart posted...
Arma: while it's true that some monsters resist physicals, Lightning has Armorbreaker, which does make phys resistance more or less trivial for her. That's why it's kind of strange she'd default to Ruin when Armorbreaker lets her do comparable damage to those monsters regardless.

Not entirely. Armor breaker just boosts Attack's damage modifier (1.1 to 1.5), it does not make an enemy's physical resistance irrelevant. If the magic damage would outpace the physical damage then Ruin will be cast (or sometimes if your facing a speedy flier).

More importantly, I've seen her default to Attack instead of Ruin against phys resistant, normal magic damage opponents... if they're GROUNDED. It's only when I launch them that she tends to start spamming Ruin. That's what stumps me - she tends to do it just when I DON'T want her to, ie when I finally staggered and launched an opponent, or when a light opponent has been knocked in the air by Thundaga or a similar attack. It's not normal at all from what I understand, especially seeing how I built her with straight up physical damage in mind (all Power, aggressive infusions).

The next time you witness this behavior, please post the enemy, your exact stats/infusions/buffs/debuffs. All the numbers and equations are known. It should be fairly simple to figure out. I've never witnessed a monster defying the damage equation if the libra info is already fully revealed.

... so I'm OK with letting monster SABs handle the debuff part. Noel and Serah may be able to do it, but it's a total waste to have them do it.

Its not a waste, its quite the opposite since they're just as good or better than almost every other SAB monster. Serah and Noel know the only 3 debuffs that are worth casting. Serah or Noel as SAB allows you to have a better and more versatile paradigm pack.

With that said, the final thing to mention is just a side note: that, in the end 'tiers' are an inherently flawed concept, as anyone who knows what he or she is doing can take a bottom tier character and make him or her as effective and efficient as a top tier one

In a fighter, probably. In this game, not as much. Your just not going to be as effective with Dreadnought as you are with Chichu.
#33GenocideHeartPosted 2/4/2013 1:12:15 PM
MightyGeb posted...

This game does not have these elements. I can give you a strategy that will always win a given battle. There is little unpredictability involved. With that in mind, certain monsters clearly outclass other and thus any tiers that may be formed have clear meaning. For example, Lightning IS better than Omega, Cloudburst IS better than Circuitron and Chieftain IS all that is needed from a SEN plus more - these statements are true regardless of player, especially since they are AI-controlled.


I have seen strategies for most battles that work every time, yes... provided you have the reflexes needed to execute them.

What about the ones among us whose reflexes aren't fast enough to paradigm shift 3 times in 3 seconds to apply a certain strategy, though?

Any given strategy may win 'every time'... but that assumes a player will be quick enough to apply it. For those who aren't, that strategy will be worthless or at the very least a lot less efficient than for others, and a more conservative, defensive one will be much wiser. This is true of every game, not just fighting games. Especially ones that actively require you to adapt to the battle flow on the fly like this one.

For instance, I am aware that there are strategies that let you one-stagger Snow, but the ones I've seen all rely on you having flawless timing in paradigm shifting - mess up once and it can land you in a very bad position. It's a valid assumption, but IS NOT going to be true for all of us, as some of us have just plain slow reflexes and need to plan for a safer, longer strategy.

When making 'tiers', you should keep that in mind and not only look at pure offensive potential, whether it be from support or raw power, but also to long-term potential that emerges in protracted fights. In fact, you should also probably include slower, defensive strategies for those who don't feel confident enough or simply aren't fast enough to use most quick strategies without serious risk of getting killed in doing so, and who'd rather win a battle safely than win it quickly. And setups that work for quick battles aren't necessarily good for longer battles, too.

Again, this is just how I feel, but it's not a wrong way of looking at things.
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**PS3 ID: GenocideHeart - Vita ID: VR-Jaguarandi**
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#34MightyGebPosted 2/4/2013 4:36:20 PM
At this stage I'm not going to try to outright change your viewpoint on battle approach anymore, but there are definitely a couple things that would improve upon your playstyle.

Alternative to outright strategy - the key points to winning difficult battles efficiently:

- Brave/Faith (FL or SYN only)
- Enspell (FL or SYN only)
- Deprotect/Shell
- Imperil
- Stagger
- Suitable COM

What this shows is that the key roles to winning battles efficiently are COMs and SYNs. The third slot is up for whatever. Seeing as how you are adamant on your conservative approach I would recommend a SEN or MED there. SABs aren't needed because Noel/Serah can apply the necessary debuffs. Alternatively, always use COM/Cloudburst/Chieftain (which is usually what I do... laziness).

With these factors, it is possible to do a one-stagger defensive approach to Snow. Take a COM/SYN/??? pack into the battle. SEN, in this case, is likely optimal due to the nature of Snow's focus on targets. You will need at least two different SENs in the pack between Serah, Noel and maybe monster. Gradually work to stagger - the only thing to ensure is that all the above factors are in place at that time. Then simply Cerberus once staggered. It will be a one stagger victory.

That's a guideline that allows for some flexibility, making no clear assumptions on input speed. Really, with decent defensive play, you should never die in the build up to stagger. Also Potions and Grimoire Hat are more effective than MEDs and allow for further paradigm flexibility.

I hope you at least consider taking suggestions such as these into account.
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GT: geblobledee
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#35GenocideHeartPosted 2/4/2013 5:12:06 PM
I can try and see how they work, but having developed a playstyle that DOES work for me (even with the occasional snafus like Lightning spamming Ruin, I can consistently win Arena fights, with Nabaat's being the only one that gives me trouble due to how many helpers she tends to summon - it's not so much the damage that gives me trouble, but the sheer chaos), I am understandably iffy on trying to force myself to play in a way that works for someone else. I'll give it a try or two.

That said, I already realized that potions and a Grimoire Hat are effective means of healing - MEDs, for me, are more about removing nasty all-party statuses - sure, I could use Remedies, but Esunada tends to be much simpler when I'm facing those incredibly annoying situations where my whole party gets whacked with a status I really don't want, and Flanitor is a great MED anyway, even if its HP is abysmally bad. Then again, squishy medic - what do you expect from a healer, awesome staying power? XD I just pop them out to heal and then move on.

Also, I've recently been considering Tezcatlipoca as a SEN. It's interesting that it can both defend and inflict multiple statuses on an opponent, and Auto-Tetradefense is very useful. Of course, Tezcatlipoca is extremely annoying to catch - I swear the RNG hates me, because after 32 tries with Feral Link finisher and fragment skill support, it still refuses to drop. -_- I might just go with something else. Guess I can give Goblin Chieftain a spin...
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**PS3 ID: GenocideHeart - Vita ID: VR-Jaguarandi**
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#36ArmaLeyvatenPosted 2/4/2013 5:49:33 PM
I just now got around to testing with Lightning against a physically-resistant opponent, which, after just two battles with Fomoires it's pretty clear she would NEVER default to physical attacks even with only Deprotect and Bravery present on the monster and Lightning respectively, pre-stagger or no. The only time she used a physical attack post-stagger was to launch. The build used was:

Strength: 1408
Magic: 716
(RL)Uncapped Damage
(RL)Immovable MAX
(RL)Enhanced Commando
(YL)HP +30%
(YL)Strength +35%
(YL)Siphon Boost II
(YL)Attack: ATB Charge II
(YL)Chain Bonus Boost II
Role Resonance
Pack Mentality

Seeing as Fomoire resists physical damage and halves magical, and she never once stopped casting Ruin even with an all-Power build, there's no possible way you can argue that she would switch from using Attack to Ruin mid-fight against any similar opponent.
#37GenocideHeartPosted 2/5/2013 8:34:20 AM
Well then, something's wrong with either my game or my Lightning... Maybe I should try trashing my crystal and getting a new one. 5-starring Requiem is sinfully easy anyway, so might as well... If even that doesn't work, then I have bigger problems than a funky Lightning AI, because something's clearly wrong with my game's data.
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**PS3 ID: GenocideHeart - Vita ID: VR-Jaguarandi**
"You forgot to buy Warp Wire, didn't you?" --Nevius