Some story questions... *spoilers*

#1Sir_TripzalotPosted 4/18/2013 3:13:58 PM
Ok, let me preface this by saying that I'm standing in Academia 500 and I haven't quite finished the game yet. I'm not sure as though what I'm about to ask is actually addressed in the final sequence of the game. I'm probably one more solid session away from completing the narrative, and at the amazingly swift pace of this board, I'm fairly confident that by the time I actually get some complete answers to my questions, I'll be long done with the "story".

That having been said, I have a few questions. Thought I would ask them while they were fresh in my mind, having just watched all the lovely and informative scenes in New Bodham 700.

So, when we first meet Hope in Yaschas Massif 10, he speaks of an "ancient" civilization of farseers that had disappeared some years ago. In fact, he's uncovered some technology in the form of an Oracle Drive on that site, a testament to this ancient group of inhabitants that either abandoned their homes for Cocoon, or were turned to Ceith at the whim of the goal driven, but incapable Pulse Fal'cie.

Was the Yuel around during that time..? I can only presume she was, because of the presence of the Oracle Drive. And if so, I can only guess she was ferried to Cocoon during that time? There wasn't any mention of her, or her tribe, through the entirety of the first game, at least to the best of my knowledge. Which leads me to believe that she was somewhere on Cocoon, hiding out. I suppose there could have been small pockets of humanity on Pulse...

Also, given the nature of Caius, and his ability to see, travel and manipulate the timeline, was he the puppet master behind Bart and the Purge..? I know that canon is that the Purge was a terrible case of Fal'cies Gone Wild, (now available on Blue-Ray) but time travel is a fickle mistress, and the ability to travel into the past coupled with the strong desire to "throw open wide the Unseen Gate" seems to be Caius's primary focus. The Fal'cie want it open to again meet the Maker, he wants it open to end Etro and summarily end time with it.

Were the two forces even in collusion..? Was he in any way responsible for "The Fall"..?

It seems to have worked. The Fall DID open the gate, and several people were "blessed" by the goddess on that day. Knowing that, wouldn't Caius be more inclined to use that known event to his advantage..? If I KNEW that the gate would be open during or shortly after The Fall, I would certainly use all my considerable resources to make sure I was properly positioned to travel through it when it did open.

It's the old "Clock Tower" axiom from Back to the Future....

Meh ... if anyone cares to comment or discuss, please feel free. And again, I'm not quite finished with the story, so some of this may be answered in the next couple hours.

As always ... Have Fun!!
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#2DXMGPosted 4/18/2013 10:03:42 PM
Good luck brother. Trying to make sense of any time travel story is a losing proposition. Trying to make sense of one that is tacked onto a story that was originally written with no time travel involved, and then trying to reconcile events from one part with the other will drive you as crazy as Caius.

My solution = Start-> Select all the cutscenes, and enjoy the battles.
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Medic!
#3lightdragoon88Posted 4/19/2013 5:05:26 AM
Sir_Tripzalot posted...
".

That having been said, I have a few questions. Thought I would ask them while they were fresh in my mind, having just watched all the lovely and informative scenes in New Bodham 700.


Looks like I am up again.

*opens book of notes*

So, when we first meet Hope in Yaschas Massif 10, he speaks of an "ancient" civilization of farseers that had disappeared some years ago. In fact, he's uncovered some technology in the form of an Oracle Drive on that site, a testament to this ancient group of inhabitants that either abandoned their homes for Cocoon, or were turned to Ceith at the whim of the goal driven, but incapable Pulse Fal'cie.


Ceith

Was the Yuel around during that time..? I can only presume she was, because of the presence of the Oracle Drive. And if so, I can only guess she was ferried to Cocoon during that time? There wasn't any mention of her, or her tribe, through the entirety of the first game, at least to the best of my knowledge. Which leads me to believe that she was somewhere on Cocoon, hiding out. I suppose there could have been small pockets of humanity on Pulse...


She and Caius were on Pulse.

Also, given the nature of Caius, and his ability to see, travel and manipulate the timeline, was he the puppet master behind Bart and the Purge..? I know that canon is that the Purge was a terrible case of Fal'cies Gone Wild, (now available on Blue-Ray) but time travel is a fickle mistress, and the ability to travel into the past coupled with the strong desire to "throw open wide the Unseen Gate" seems to be Caius's primary focus. The Fal'cie want it open to again meet the Maker, he wants it open to end Etro and summarily end time with it.


Caius can't travel through time and he never manipulated the Fal'Cie during the first game. The first game was during the true timeline and Caius was happy. It was during Etro intervention at the end of XIII that changed the timelines and made Caius go crazy.

Were the two forces even in collusion..? Was he in any way responsible for "The Fall"..?


Not in the first game.

*closes book*

Well I hope this help. Have anymore questions?
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#4DXMGPosted 4/19/2013 10:38:45 AM
But as soon as that happened, it borked the WHOLE timeline, so Caius would have been insane during the events of XIII, no?

That's what I mean about time travel stories. They can never make sense. Remember in this case - "if you change the future, you change the past."

ANY disruption of the timeline at any point borks the whole mess, so the "true" timeline of XIII is no longer the true timeline.
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Medic!
#5lightdragoon88Posted 4/19/2013 12:05:08 PM
DXMG posted...
But as soon as that happened, it borked the WHOLE timeline, so Caius would have been insane during the events of XIII, no?

That's what I mean about time travel stories. They can never make sense. Remember in this case - "if you change the future, you change the past."

ANY disruption of the timeline at any point borks the whole mess, so the "true" timeline of XIII is no longer the true timeline.



The timeline of XIII is the true timeline.


It just that the events we went through in XIII didn't happen anymore in XIII-2.


We didn't see any Yuel or Caius during the playthrough of XIII cause that was a playthrough of the true timeline.
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#6DXMGPosted 4/19/2013 5:55:05 PM
lightdragoon88 posted...
DXMG posted...
But as soon as that happened, it borked the WHOLE timeline, so Caius would have been insane during the events of XIII, no?

That's what I mean about time travel stories. They can never make sense. Remember in this case - "if you change the future, you change the past."

ANY disruption of the timeline at any point borks the whole mess, so the "true" timeline of XIII is no longer the true timeline.



The timeline of XIII is the true timeline.


It just that the events we went through in XIII didn't happen anymore in XIII-2.


We didn't see any Yuel or Caius during the playthrough of XIII cause that was a playthrough of the true timeline.


lol. I have a grin on right now, cause I love it when this happens. You said "We didn't see any Yuel or Caius during the playthrough of XIII cause that was a playthrough of the true timeline."

Such a simple statement, and yet I see exactly what you mean now. I find it especially surprising because it actually makes me think of the whole idea of time travel in a different way rather than just applying to this games story.

O_O.

Seriously, you have enlightened me greatly today, and I am not joking at all. Thanks!
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Medic!
#7lightdragoon88Posted 4/19/2013 6:57:18 PM
DXMG posted...


lol. I have a grin on right now, cause I love it when this happens. You said "We didn't see any Yuel or Caius during the playthrough of XIII cause that was a playthrough of the true timeline."

Such a simple statement, and yet I see exactly what you mean now. I find it especially surprising because it actually makes me think of the whole idea of time travel in a different way rather than just applying to this games story.

O_O.

Seriously, you have enlightened me greatly today, and I am not joking at all. Thanks!



I am happy to help.

Yes this story can be confusing, but when it understood, it a good story. I seem to be one of the few people to understand this story and I made it a mission to share my understanding.

If there is any other questions about the story of XIII or XIII-2 here, please PM about a new story question topic me as I am not around here that often anymore (the league of legends board sees to that). I will come running back to share again.
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#8SoeroahPosted 4/20/2013 4:36:03 AM
DXMG posted...
Good luck brother. Trying to make sense of any time travel story is a losing proposition. Trying to make sense of one that is tacked onto a story that was originally written with no time travel involved, and then trying to reconcile events from one part with the other will drive you as crazy as Caius.

My solution = Start-> Select all the cutscenes, and enjoy the battles.


I disagree, I can think of a few pretty good time travel stories.

In fact, I just recently managed to work out how time travel worked in one anime I saw last year and the feeling of satisfaction at working it out (at least my interpretation) blew my mind as much as watching it the first time.
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#9Sir_Tripzalot(Topic Creator)Posted 4/20/2013 3:48:04 PM
Ok, so.. I just finished this bugger up this morning, and I have to say, vehemently, that was the ***ttiest FF ending ever.

In the history of things, there have been many FF endings, and that was hands down the worst one. Seriously...***tty.

I'm already playing out LRFF13 in my head, and it is glorious...

Meh, I'm still going to play this game to Platinum, so no worries there. And, it turns out that a lot of the questions brewing in my dome were at least partially answered in that final stretch run.

Ok, got a few more questions about things, if someone would oblige me...

Yuel's warning to Serah and Noel just before engaging Caius for the final throwdown. I understand that she was trying to keep the Heart of Chaos beating, and Etro alive, but wouldn't that mess up the timeline even worse..? What I mean is, wouldn't keeping Caius alive eventually bring about some inescapable paradox that would consume the whole timeline..?

How is that any worse than what actually happened..?

And I presume that Yuel is no longer with us (or never was). That was at least implied when Caius died, that he and Yuel could now be together for eternity in Valhalla. I'm not sure Yuel's motivation for warning the heroes against killing Caius (though I did show him mercy when it was all said and done).

To me at least, someone who can see the destruction wrought by Caius and his fiddling with the timeline would at least want to set that portion of it "right". Let the chips fall where they may, at least the true timeline would be restored....

And Lightning ended up in crystal stasis...? How in the heck did that happen..? Can people self-crystalize now..? Etro get all pissored at her Champion and change Light into a Crystal for fulfilling her focus ...? Did she have a focus..?

Was her focus to engage in as many bad-ass cinematics as possible before allowing the world to be plunged into darkness despite everyone's best efforts spanning several centuries..? Because if that was her focus, she completed it wonderfully...

Meh ... I'm done for now ... questions, comments..? Feel Free!!

As always, have fun!!
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Your proctologist called...he's found your head.
Three words to fix the economy. Gay. Bridal. Registry. discuss...
#10lightdragoon88Posted 4/20/2013 8:12:56 PM
Sir_Tripzalot posted...

Ok, got a few more questions about things, if someone would oblige me...


You rang?

Let me get my book.



Yuel's warning to Serah and Noel just before engaging Caius for the final throwdown. I understand that she was trying to keep the Heart of Chaos beating, and Etro alive, but wouldn't that mess up the timeline even worse..? What I mean is, wouldn't keeping Caius alive eventually bring about some inescapable paradox that would consume the whole timeline..?

How is that any worse than what actually happened..?


No because Caius has always been part of the true timeline, to protect Yuel until the end of time.

And I presume that Yuel is no longer with us (or never was). That was at least implied when Caius died, that he and Yuel could now be together for eternity in Valhalla. I'm not sure Yuel's motivation for warning the heroes against killing Caius (though I did show him mercy when it was all said and done).

To me at least, someone who can see the destruction wrought by Caius and his fiddling with the timeline would at least want to set that portion of it "right". Let the chips fall where they may, at least the true timeline would be restored....


Well when you beat the game with all the fragments you get a hidden ending.

spoiler

Caius is alive

And Lightning ended up in crystal stasis...? How in the heck did that happen..? Can people self-crystalize now..? Etro get all pissored at her Champion and change Light into a Crystal for fulfilling her focus ...? Did she have a focus..?

Was her focus to engage in as many bad-ass cinematics as possible before allowing the world to be plunged into darkness despite everyone's best efforts spanning several centuries..? Because if that was her focus, she completed it wonderfully...

Meh ... I'm done for now ... questions, comments..? Feel Free!!

As always, have fun!!


Well the Lightning DLC shows why Lightning is crystallize.

*Turns to last page of notes*


Spoiler

During one of her fights against Caius in Valhalla, Lightning saw a vision of the Chaos breaking free and destroying all of time. She also saw that the Chaos couldn't touch/kill people who were crystallize (aka fang, Vanille, and other focus complete people over the years) So Lightning turns herself into crystal so that the Chaos doesn't kill her and she awaken hundreds of years later to destroy the chaos and bring the True timeline back. (Thus the game Lightning Returns:XIII)


*closes book*


I think that is about it. Did it help? Any other questions? Anything you want me to focus on more?
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