gilgamesh had to use slow + easy to beat

#1chrcolPosted 4/19/2013 7:51:45 AM
So had a go at gilgamesh for first time.

Noticed the cheapo one hit KO moves, some appear without warning and there was even an attack which wasnt divider able to one hit KO my party when they wer at full health.

Also I did read this topic.

http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/619315-final-fantasy-xiii-2/62501494?page=2

Sitting here wondering how someone can stagger him, debuff him, and get him to 999% with time left to damage him. Generally I staggered him, debuffed him, did 2 turns of rav-rav-com which got him to about 700%ish then went to damage mode, by then he only has 30-40% or so stagger left as in this game stagger is so short.

Now ironically since my com is lightning and she is breaking the 99k barrier on her attacks as also whilst I am debuffing I get brave, faith and en buffs up. I am having no issue at all doing more than 1 million damage per stagger. In fact when I was doing triple com I was taking over 35% of his health per stagger, in one stagger I did 50% or so.

However I had to go more defensive to beat this guy I ended up putting a sen monster in a few of my paradgrims including sacrificing the triple com one. Even with 2 coms I still was able to easily outdamage his healing but the short staggers were annoying and he even did one of his cheapo attacks with my sen out and the sen died in one hit with a 16k damage hit O_o, luckily noel and serah only took 2k each from the same attack. At the end of each stagger I switched to triple sen. Also when I swtched to lightning and noel attacking on stagger serah was healing in preperation for super attack at end of it and on painkiller duty.

It seems to me this fight highlights the following to me.

Importance of stagger maintenance II, which I guess should be combined with a quick stagger so the monster with the skill is more likely to inflict the stagger hit. Chain bonus boost II is incredibly weak pre stagger on a com (just about every monster in the game including this one is highly resistant to chain growth) but if I am to put SMII on a monster and want to maximise its chance of inflicting stagger for longer duration then CBII is probably needed. Ironically I see after capturing gilgamesh he has stagger maintenance II and quick stagger.

Also debuff resistance is clearly ideal for this fight although is fairly trivial to remove pain/fog/daze as long as waiting for it to occur so can do it quickly.

Thankfully purple chocobos AI doesnt get in a twist too much in this fight.

When I did kill him I got crystal first time luckily. But until I beat this guy on normal and normal speed I wont be happy with the kill.

Did also wonder about using chichu instead of lightning, faster but less HP and capped to 99k damage (lightning doing 120-130k per hit).
#2tiornysPosted 4/19/2013 8:26:00 AM
You apparently don't understandand chain duration and stagger duration mechanics. Almost every attack you make adds duration to the chain. RAV attacks add a piddly 0.9 seconds; COM attacks add 2.33 seconds. This is why RAV attacks appear to make the chain fall quickly while COM attacks appear to "stabilize" the gauge.

Stagger duration is calculated by taking the chain duration at time of stagger, doubling it, and adding 8 seconds. Maximum stagger duration (for both games) is 45 seconds.

You're seeing short staggers because you are letting the chain duration get too low right before stagger; it's fairly trivial to max stagger duration if you understand the mechanics involved (this is why experts don't value Stagger Maintenance: it does not extend max stagger duration and therefore does nothing most of the time).

As for rapidly building chain at the start of stagger, why are you using Relentless Assault instead of Tri-disaster? I'm sorry, but that complaint reads as "I'm using a paradigm with 66% efficiency and don't understand why I'm getting different results!".

All of the best strategies for this fight involve avoiding Gilgamesh's more powerful attacks by setting up to kill him in a stagger that takes him from above half health to dead.
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#3destrian522Posted 4/19/2013 3:26:36 PM
Use COM/Cloudburst/Goblin Chieftain for your pack here. You can't afford to give up a COM monster since Noel and Serah suck at damage dealing. You are correct to think that a Sen monster is helpful.
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#4kewldude475Posted 4/19/2013 9:43:28 PM
Use Golblin Chieftain for his Spirit Infusion Feral Link. As well as what the two guys above said (one of them also mentioned Goblin Chieftain)
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#5chrcol(Topic Creator)Posted 4/20/2013 7:22:58 AM
tiornys actually I do, but there is also a cap on the duration thats reduced in ff13-2 over ff13. eg. attacking with relentless assault in ff13 will give a longer stagger than it does in ff13-2.

So no I am not letting the stagger go down, I am not using triple rav to build up gauge.

A simple test is attack with a com in ff13-2 and do same in ff13, in ff13-2 the bar goes down much quicker.

If the mechanics have changed to the point that triple rav gives longer stagger than one with a com in then I would an explanation as to how.

In ff13 I found it trivial to get long stagger times, and I am not lieing but I think I have never ever got a 45 sec stagger time in ff13-2 unless I debuffed first. So to call stagger maintenance II useless when the stagger time prior is not 45 secs is wrong.

Incidently various youtube videos made by elite jap ff13-2 gamers show strategies using quick stagger and stagger maintenance II, I guess they idiots?

Destrian I did have com monster the com I sacrificed was serah. Although I dont think it was a huge fight changer as I wasnt struggling to outdo his healing, for me the struggle was seeing when his powerful attacks were coming as some come at random times. What I am thinking of doing is using the str 66% and mag 66% accessories on serah and noel, and if I can get a long stagger seeing if this guy can be beaten in one stagger. Sadly it seems I will have to yield to using a feral link to get buffs, I absolutely hate feral links in this game and people seem to not like making strategies without them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWCaecVLQPQ
#6chrcol(Topic Creator)Posted 4/20/2013 7:29:39 AM
tiornys if you pretend everyone is not you (they not skilled at the timings etc. for max stagger).

Assume a average stagger time is 30 seconds or so, is SMII then useless?

All I know is the way I play (and I dont let stagger gauge drop down unless I am forced to out of desperation) I never had issues in ff13 stagger duration but I do in ff13-2 and I know outside of stagger the bar falls quicker as well, especially from com's.

So whilst the max stagger is same in both games it seems to me its harder to get max stagger in this game than it is in ff13.
#7chrcol(Topic Creator)Posted 4/20/2013 7:34:40 AM
"As for rapidly building chain at the start of stagger, why are you using Relentless Assault instead of Tri-disaster? I'm sorry, but that complaint reads as "I'm using a paradigm with 66% efficiency and don't understand why I'm getting different results!"."

This contradicts your previous statement

Com attacks add more duration.
You then suggest using triple rav AFTER saying they add piddy duration.
So rav attacks build up the chain quicker but with faster drain, this is apparently the way to get max stagger duration.

If I attack an enemy 10 times with a com in FF13 it takes over 20 seconds for it to empty. If I do the same in ff13-2 it takes 4-5 seconds. The amount of duration in the 2 games for com/rav attacks has been changed so I am very confused you are saying the mechanics are 100% the same in both games.
#8chrcol(Topic Creator)Posted 4/20/2013 7:36:49 AM
I used relentless assult to LENGTHEN the duration it lasts.
#9chrcol(Topic Creator)Posted 4/20/2013 8:16:54 AM
sorry for my outburst a bit guys but Tiourny spoke to me a bit elitist as if I didnt know com has longer duration.

After thinking about ti a bit more its possible I did have 45 sec stagger (I didnt count) but simply didnt have enough time to do everything those other guys were saying they doing, I was already aware of course I Could improve but was just throwing out thoughts in my original post.

However we all play the game differently, have different skills, probably have different styles of play, so its wrong for one person to put down another and assume his.her style of play is the only way to play. To make comments such as stagger time is always max anyway is wrong for that reason. One reason I dont like using feral links unless they very simple like pressing one button is I can get confused simply for the reaction time required. and I did notice when using goblin cheif's feral link once with 100% sync rate the duration was quite short. I have never put down another poster and made them feel as if they dumb or something, that is a wrong attitude to have. So yes many of the people on here think SMII is useless, I dont and I think CBII is over rated. Everyone has their own thoughts, although CBII is still on my coms on this playthru, I do expect to be dropping it.

I do plan to build a cloudburst for this fight, however if I cant get my head round the feral link instead I will try use serah or noel as the sen and have rav/syn/com monsters.
#10destrian522Posted 4/20/2013 8:24:26 AM
chrcol posted...
tiornys actually I do, but there is also a cap on the duration thats reduced in ff13-2 over ff13. eg. attacking with relentless assault in ff13 will give a longer stagger than it does in ff13-2.

So no I am not letting the stagger go down, I am not using triple rav to build up gauge.

A simple test is attack with a com in ff13-2 and do same in ff13, in ff13-2 the bar goes down much quicker.

Stagger duration mechanics haven't changed. We've already tested this. In fact, we discovered that the duration mechanics discussed in the GMG for XIII are actually wrong. It's stagger duration = 2 * chain duration + 8.

If the mechanics have changed to the point that triple rav gives longer stagger than one with a com in then I would an explanation as to how.

The durations haven't changed. Compare the role abilities in XIII-2 with the ones in XIII and let us know what discrepancies you find:
http://etrosgate.com/ffxiii-2/mechanics/role-abilities
http://www.gamefaqs.com/xbox360/950899-final-fantasy-xiii/faqs/59246

In ff13 I found it trivial to get long stagger times, and I am not lieing but I think I have never ever got a 45 sec stagger time in ff13-2 unless I debuffed first. So to call stagger maintenance II useless when the stagger time prior is not 45 secs is wrong.

Stagger Maintenance II is useless. If you haven't ever gotten a 45 second stagger time then you are doing something wrong. Obviously debuffing first makes a huge difference. That was true in the last game too. In this fight, you can't debuff Gilgamesh before staggering, but most of the optimized videos use SAB pre-stagger to build chain duration and set up the command string they want for post-stagger debuffing.

Incidently various youtube videos made by elite jap ff13-2 gamers show strategies using quick stagger and stagger maintenance II, I guess they idiots?

The Japanese players are great, but none of their videos have demonstrated that their understanding of the game mechanics is necessarily as detail oriented as ours. They are fiercely creative and execution geniuses. To answer your question: no, they aren't idiots. They may be ignorant of the effectiveness of SMII. I can't blame them. I had to convince the collaborators for the Monster Infusion FAQ that SMII wasn't good. It was all over the RAV builds before then. Quick Stagger is useful on its own merits, by they way. It isn't fantastic, but it is worth including.

Destrian I did have com monster the com I sacrificed was serah. Although I dont think it was a huge fight changer as I wasnt struggling to outdo his healing, for me the struggle was seeing when his powerful attacks were coming as some come at random times. What I am thinking of doing is using the str 66% and mag 66% accessories on serah and noel, and if I can get a long stagger seeing if this guy can be beaten in one stagger. Sadly it seems I will have to yield to using a feral link to get buffs, I absolutely hate feral links in this game and people seem to not like making strategies without them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWCaecVLQPQ


I'm aware of two no Feral Link Gilgamesh videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=WVFpO9hxJfE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=qFGU3x4me7s

If you are having trouble building duration, then spend more time with a SAB out before stagger. You have to choose between bringing a Sen and ignoring Feral Links, though. You can't do both if you want to do well.
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