*SPOILERS*ENDING DISCUSSION:So why did Minerva...

#11DonjonO(Topic Creator)Posted 11/8/2012 11:33:47 PM
Greyfeld posted...
DonjonO posted...
Sorry Greyfield but your post had not appeared when I replied to the previous post.

Minerva claims she intended to lead Desmond to the temple because she thought it was safe to do so, she says so at the end of AC3, but she did not know Juno was still around, so your explanation does not work either.

I hope it isn't that they just made it up as they went along because everything in the plot of the series works except this. I am hoping someone can point out something I missed that works.


Maybe you misunderstood what I said, because my explanation fits perfectly with what you just said.

Minerva is trying to guide Desmond to the technology to save humanity. Desmond follows said instructions and ends up at the site for AC3. Juno cuts off Minerva's instructions once he arrives and guides him toward the sphere, instead of whatever tech Minerva would have guided him toward.


Then why does Minerva claim there no time left because centuries have been wasted? If I understand what you're saying then Minerva could have just said "how about you take a left here instead of going straight and you'll find the machine that will save the world and keep Juno locked in the super duper hard drive".
You seem to indicate that Minerva knows how to save the world but the impression I got was that there is no way to save the world: she wanted humanity to pick up where they left off and hopefully find a way to save the Earth.
This does not seem to fit with what you are saying: that Juno ended up redirecting the team to something different than what Minerva intended.
#12GreyfeldPosted 11/8/2012 11:47:38 PM(edited)
DonjonO posted...
Then why does Minerva claim there no time left because centuries have been wasted?


She spent centuries setting things up for Desmond to save the world just in the nick of time. Juno usurped her plans at the last minute, effectively wasting centuries of planning and carefully manipulating human events throughout history.

If I understand what you're saying then Minerva could have just said "how about you take a left here instead of going straight and you'll find the machine that will save the world and keep Juno locked in the super duper hard drive".


It took nearly two months for Desmond and party to find the key and unlock the various layers of the first civ site. It wasn't explicitely stated, but I think it's safe to assume that whatever Minerva had in mind would require more than just backtracking a little and taking a left.

You seem to indicate that Minerva knows how to save the world but the impression I got was that there is no way to save the world: she wanted humanity to pick up where they left off and hopefully find a way to save the Earth.


Juno was the one feeding information to Desmond in the first civ site about the first civ technology. We'll never know what Minerva had in mind, or if there was ever an actual way to save humanity, because Juno stepped in and guided Desmond in the wrong direction. We don't actually know how much of what Juno said was the truth. All we really know is that she was trying to manipulate him into releasing her.
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PSN - Aevio
"I'm on a Goomba." - BlackMageJawa
#13ajmrowlandPosted 11/8/2012 11:48:46 PM
Minerva appearing in this game can be in itself a spoiler. I mean it's the ending, and we're told already that she and Tinus abandoned the cave.

So anyway, I'll read on.
#14ajmrowlandPosted 11/8/2012 11:51:04 PM
Considering she appears at the end and we're told almost from the beginning that she and that other guy abandoned this place, putting her name in the topic is in itself a spoiler.

Not that I'm rantng or anything, but it's a minor spoiler.
#15ajmrowlandPosted 11/8/2012 11:54:08 PM
Oh, and Ubisoft while certainly making some things up as they went at least had the common sense to cover their asses by humanizing these beings and saying they had centuries of hope and couldnt properly predict the future.

That still leaves Eve though.
#16DonjonO(Topic Creator)Posted 11/9/2012 12:29:33 AM
Greyfeld posted...
DonjonO posted...
Then why does Minerva claim there no time left because centuries have been wasted?


She spent centuries setting things up for Desmond to save the world just in the nick of time. Juno usurped her plans at the last minute, effectively wasting centuries of planning and carefully manipulating human events throughout history.

If I understand what you're saying then Minerva could have just said "how about you take a left here instead of going straight and you'll find the machine that will save the world and keep Juno locked in the super duper hard drive".


It took nearly two months for Desmond and party to find the key and unlock the various layers of the first civ site. It wasn't explicitely stated, but I think it's safe to assume that whatever Minerva had in mind would require more than just backtracking a little and taking a left.

You seem to indicate that Minerva knows how to save the world but the impression I got was that there is no way to save the world: she wanted humanity to pick up where they left off and hopefully find a way to save the Earth.


Juno was the one feeding information to Desmond in the first civ site about the first civ technology. We'll never know what Minerva had in mind, or if there was ever an actual way to save humanity, because Juno stepped in and guided Desmond in the wrong direction. We don't actually know how much of what Juno said was the truth. All we really know is that she was trying to manipulate him into releasing her.


Ok so let's backtrack just a bit because I like this kind of discussion a great deal

Minerva while she was alive looked into the future and saw Desmonds' ancestors actions and decided to leave messages for them to inform Desmond that the end of the world is coming and to look for the temples to save the world as per the ending in AC2.
In Brotherhood the team finds out where Ezio left the apple and Juno comes in the picture to guide the team to a temple.
Nothing really relevant to the 2012 plot happens outside of some character issues in Revelations.
At the end of AC3 the team finds what Juno was guiding them towards and Minerva shows up again to tell the team to not listen to Juno.

Minerva still told the team to look for temples as means to find a way to save the earth and she clearly states at the end of AC3 that she wanted humanity to use the first civ's research to keep working towards a solution but that centuries had been wasted.

You seem to attribute the wasted centuries to Juno also having intervened in the past (it's true we don't see her outside of the present until AC3) and thus led the assassins to fight with the templars rather than come together and figure out a solution. I don't see it that way but from where I stand that does not matter.
Minerva saw the future and decided to tell Desmond to find the temples at the end of AC2 and this is where the whole thing falls apart: why bother if, since she saw the future, she knew it was not going to work? You claim she might have had some secret plan no one knows about, I claim she wanted humanity to work on the tech they left behind. Either way, by seeing in the future she would know that neither would work either because Juno misleads the team or because there isn't enough time to expand on percursor technology.

I am going to bed so I will bump this tomorrow.
#17teddifiedPosted 11/9/2012 12:38:09 AM(edited)
Minerva mentioned leaving discs for Desmond, so without Juno there would be no need to play as Connor and get the key to free her.

Basically they wanted him there but when Minerva had a last look she found out that Juno screwed things up and wasted the time Desmond could have had to look at those discs and maybe do something, or maybe not. But it was her plan.

Edit: Maybe it was Juno who mentioned throwing the Discs away.....anyway there were discs prepared and Juno got rid of them.
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The Terror of Death.....
PSN - Teddified
#18GreyfeldPosted 11/9/2012 2:10:07 AM(edited)
DonjonO posted...
Ok so let's backtrack just a bit because I like this kind of discussion a great deal

Minerva while she was alive looked into the future and saw Desmonds' ancestors actions and decided to leave messages for them to inform Desmond that the end of the world is coming and to look for the temples to save the world as per the ending in AC2.
In Brotherhood the team finds out where Ezio left the apple and Juno comes in the picture to guide the team to a temple.
Nothing really relevant to the 2012 plot happens outside of some character issues in Revelations.
At the end of AC3 the team finds what Juno was guiding them towards and Minerva shows up again to tell the team to not listen to Juno.

Minerva still told the team to look for temples as means to find a way to save the earth and she clearly states at the end of AC3 that she wanted humanity to use the first civ's research to keep working towards a solution but that centuries had been wasted.

You seem to attribute the wasted centuries to Juno also having intervened in the past (it's true we don't see her outside of the present until AC3) and thus led the assassins to fight with the templars rather than come together and figure out a solution. I don't see it that way but from where I stand that does not matter.
Minerva saw the future and decided to tell Desmond to find the temples at the end of AC2 and this is where the whole thing falls apart: why bother if, since she saw the future, she knew it was not going to work? You claim she might have had some secret plan no one knows about, I claim she wanted humanity to work on the tech they left behind. Either way, by seeing in the future she would know that neither would work either because Juno misleads the team or because there isn't enough time to expand on percursor technology.

I am going to bed so I will bump this tomorrow.


I never mentioned the templar/assassin conflict. As far as I'm aware, Juno has nothing to do with that. The only reason it even comes up in this game is because Juno is trying to lead Desmond to find the key that will allow him to access the orb that releases Juno from her... whatever it is, so she pushes him to jump into the Connor timeline to get that information.

Admittedly, I'm not sure when the templar/assassin conflict began. It might have been alluded to in the games, but I haven't gone back to replay them, so my memory is a bit fuzzy. But the Templars' existence predate their knowledge of the Pieces of Eden, which lead me to believe they're not directly related to the first civilization in any way.

On the other hand, the Assassin Brotherhood began with Adam and Eve, during the first civilization, who were (if I recall correctly) half-human offspring of some of the first-civ populace, who helped wrench power from the first civilization, due to their genetic immunity to the Pieces of Eden.

In the end, Minerva had to navigate the Templar/Assassin conflict in order to get her message down to Desmond, but I don't think that Juno actually manipulated the conflict in order to stop her.

Edit: And yes, Juno mentioned she was the one that tossed out the discs.
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PSN - Aevio
"I'm on a Goomba." - BlackMageJawa
#19ShenGonPosted 11/10/2012 5:58:42 PM
Actually, I love how this ending makes Revleations, specifically the ending, that much more irrelevant.

If Juno was sealed by her own people, why didn't either Minerva or (Tinia?) bother to warn Desmond when they were all standing there? Just one little- "By the way, she is a lying ***** " would have done it.
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"Does Heaven wish us to destroy ourselves?"
Liu Bei, Kessen II
#20GreyfeldPosted 11/10/2012 6:25:58 PM
ShenGon posted...
Actually, I love how this ending makes Revleations, specifically the ending, that much more irrelevant.

If Juno was sealed by her own people, why didn't either Minerva or (Tinia?) bother to warn Desmond when they were all standing there? Just one little- "By the way, she is a lying ***** " would have done it.


My guess is that Minerva didn't realize Juno had managed to get free of her imprisonment.
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PSN - Aevio
"I'm on a Goomba." - BlackMageJawa