Ok, guys, how do you fight Seth?

#1Dark SymphonyPosted 12/8/2012 3:42:31 AM
I'm interested in both general tips and character specific. I use Juri. I don't want to jump the gun and say it's a bad match in her favor but after as many games as I played trying to find some good footing (granted I'm far from someone who takes advantage of all Juri's ability) I couldn't really find something reliable to either take over the pace or shift momentum when I was on defense.

First off I allowed too many free FADCs into pressure so there's one avenue of pressure I can shore up to stem the tide of the assault but I'm so unfamiliar with the nitty gritty of SSF4s system that the real issue was I simply wasn't prepared to even begin trying to take that guy on.

I am, of course, talking about human played Seth's and not AI.

And don't feel like you have to focus on Juri. Any insight would be good in trying to figure out holes in his game.
#2Tim the Enchanter 55Posted 12/8/2012 4:20:36 AM
punish HARD, if you give seth an inch he'll take a mile so you can't let him get away with anything

if you get knocked down you just have to hope you guess right on wakeup
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3g1KcOw7zas
#3nantomasterPosted 12/8/2012 7:33:19 AM
Two links.

http://shoryuken.com/forum/index.php?threads/full-time-purple-spider-lesbian-juri-match-up-strategy-thread.122452/

http://shoryuken.com/forum/index.php?threads/a-master-class-in-juri-han-matchups-fuzzy-unblockables-safe-jumps-in-progress.170564/

First link has a really, really, brief look at the Seth MU. Second link's what specific stuff you can use on him(such as unblockables and junk.)

Honestly, it's difficult to describe how to fight against Seth and I can't remember the important stuff, so it's gonna be pretty general. Like the match up thread says, keep Seth at a distance with pokes, his pokes aren't that great. Store Fuhajins safely from afar, away from his cr.hp range, I think he can punish Fuhajin stores whiffs quite easily with cr.hp from a good distance(and possibly his Ultra as well, but I dunno about that.)

When he throws Sonic Booms, I think it's best to try and punish them with Divekick if you can react to it, rather than trying to absorb them with Fuhajin stores/FAing them. Maybe use her MP and HP counters to safely absorb them.

Dealing with Seth's divekick can be an issue, seeing as Juri hasn't got an invincible AA. At times, you'll have to meet him air-to-air with jump-forward+MP, or neutral jump+HK. Seth can throw off your AAs by divekicking at certain times, especially during his wall-jump, so it's difficult to know when to AA him. Storing HK Fuhajins at safe times and using it to AA him helps a lot.

When Seth's on you, you have to guess, especially if you're knocked down. Juri doesn't have particularly good reversals, so she's at a disadvantage. He might go for his command grab, he might use Tandem, he might DP, and so on. So mix-up your defensive options between jumping, backdashing, blocking and reversaling, but it's best to block at times and be patient. Mix up your wake-up, sometimes tech, sometimes don't tech in order to throw him off. If he guesses wrong on Tandem, his command grab or his DP(unless he can FADC it), punish him HARD. He doesn't have much life and Juri lives a bit longer than he does, so she at least has the slight luxury of being able to take more risks.

When you knock him down, you can use j.hp to make his DP whiff. I can't remember what Juri can do if he teleports backwards, but she can probably punish it with something. You can do all sorts of weird stuff that takes advantage of his hitbox to kill him off really quickly if he gets caught up in it(in the second link.)

Can't remember anything else right now. In short, Juri has to keep him out and get into a position where she can gain momentum and kill him off quickly. Seth has a much easier time gaining momentum and can abuse Juri's weak defensive options, but a few wrong guesses on his part and/or a few right guesses on your part can net Juri the win.
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PSN: Otogi-Matsuri. MVC3: X-23/Dante/Trish SSF4: Viper/Cammy/Sakura/Juri/Oni
http://www.youtube.com/user/OtogiMatsuri
#4pAceyzPosted 12/8/2012 10:43:04 AM
It's a 50/50 to anti-air him because of his dive kick unless you have a particularly good anti-air. I figured doing a neutral jump or jump back attack against him as good as it's pretty safe and it makes him think twice about jumping at you - you really don't want him jumping at you or it could be game over.
#5nantomasterPosted 12/8/2012 11:07:34 AM
Yeah, definitely neutral or jump-back+attack. At least with Juri's HK fireball, you don't have to commit as it goes upwards in an arc and whatever he does, you're safe.
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PSN: Otogi-Matsuri. MVC3: X-23/Dante/Trish SSF4: Viper/Cammy/Sakura/Juri/Oni
http://www.youtube.com/user/OtogiMatsuri
#6Dark Symphony(Topic Creator)Posted 12/8/2012 11:41:02 AM
This topic contains good news and bad news for me.

The good news is I was come to a lot of similar conclusions about the match up although I had less practical answers. The info on fireball stores will be helpful and definitely knowing what ranges he suffers at is good (nothing worse that fighting such a momentum driven character and knowing nothing about what he can do and when).

The bad news.... it seems there are no great tricks, matchup exploits or good momentum shifting defensive options on the Juri end which means I just literally have to get better at the base game in order to get around this guy.

Weak punishes is definitely a weakness of mine. So there's some ground to gain there.

Honestly, I am quite dense on backdashes. I know they carry some invincibility properties. I can look them up but does someone mind giving me an idea of when you would use them?

And could someone also run down, from a Seth perspective, what kind of mixup options he has on wakeup? Basically so I can know exactly what he can go for when I'm on the ground. Especially after the SPD.

I feel like I should be able to punish the SPD with a neutral jump anything but I kept getting blocked or DPd. Probably due to hesitating so I'll have to work on that. It's so hard to fight with no match up knowledge. You have to just... blindly defend and you have no idea when to turn that defense into offense. Usually you're just turning it into offense for the opponent.

Oh, and thanks for the links. I'll go through them. Looked up some top level Juri vs Seth matches. The unfortunate truth is that they didn't look too different from my matches.
#7nantomasterPosted 12/8/2012 11:59:42 AM
I'm gonna be honest, it's not particularly great for Juri.

As for when you'd use backdashes, anytime you get knocked down, or are caught in a string that's not tight. Keep in mind Seth could option-select and punish your defensive options, and Juri's options aren't very good at all. Though you can FAbackdash on wake-up and that'll stop an option select, but might get nabbed by the command grab. When I used to play as Juri vs Seths on my list, sometimes, I'd just get bumrushed and there wasn't anything I could really do about it lol.

The only exploits would be some of the Seth specific unblockables/mix-ups you can land on him.

From my experience fighting Seths, his options whenever he knocks you down tend to go like this:

1) Jump-in(can be option-selected with Tandem or DP.)

2) Cross-up.

3) Empty Jump SPD(command grab)

4) Empty Jump into low.

5) Empty-jump DP if they have meter.

If you block his jump-ins/cross-ups/empty lows, you get caught in a string and they usually do:

1) Tick-throw(regular or command throw, you can guess and jump it)

2) Tick into DP.

3) String into Tandem(pretty sure you interrupt this, can't remember, but you can jump it if you guess right.)

4) Full-blockstrings/frametraps, may contain DPs and other junk.

So you have to choose between blocking, (FA)backdashing, reversaling(Juri's EX Pinwheel can get nabbed by grabs btw) and sometimes jumping.
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PSN: Otogi-Matsuri. MVC3: X-23/Dante/Trish SSF4: Viper/Cammy/Sakura/Juri/Oni
http://www.youtube.com/user/OtogiMatsuri
#8Shoryuken34Posted 12/8/2012 5:20:44 PM
assuming you know how to block, just jump over at random times to punish tandems and spds for good punishes
#9Red MinotaurPosted 12/9/2012 2:15:39 AM(edited)
Ok I play Seth and I think the matchup is 5-5. Seth can run over Juri when he has momentum due to her weak reversal game, but Juri has a neutral game that's hard for Seth to break and extremely powerful corner pressure.

On Seth's end, there isn't a whole lot he can do to just go in. Juri can easily match him in a fireball war, her ground AAs can be timed to beat both regular jump and divekick (more on this in a bit), and if Seth gets predictable with the jumps she can juggle him for a 1/3rd of his hp. If the Juri is patient and has solid AA/footsies, she can force Seth to play her game until he dies or she screws up.

For the normal AAs, there's a timing where I believe it's the upward kick (or maybe the punch) that beats a majority of jumpins and divekicks cause of the long active. There's a late dive kick timing to beat this, but that makes the jump-in a lot less ambiguous, and it's very susceptible to air-to-air.

Now if you do get hard KD'd, you're in a bit of trouble. Without meter you're gonna be stuck in frametrap/spd city and your best bet is to block and bet on a backdash somewhere between his strings. If you do have meter, the situation becomes a bit better as you can threaten with ex pinwheel. Still better to go for neutral/back jump/backdash over the reversal though as a blocked pinwheel means punish, possibly ultra which leads to another 50/50 and so on. If Seth keeps tandening to extend his blockstrings, jump over and punish him for it, but good Seths will cr.mk and stop to bait the jump in for easy AA and KD, or cr.mk boom FADC combo to catch your jumping frames.

Anytime you use ex counter always dash to the side instead of going up if you can, if Seth is looking for it it's an easy lp.dp juggle for big damage and reset. In any case, go into training mode and learn the spacing for his jump-in hk and when it crosses up, it's not too difficult to see once you've learned it.

I can't really tell you how to do Juri corner pressure cause I don't play her, but when you get a chance against Seth, frametrap+Fuhajin the **** out of him. He can't handle that type of pressure and damage, and you need to exploit the hell out of it. If you can lockdown his walljumps as well, you can slowly melt him in the corner at your leisure.

Btw there's not much point listing his mix-up options, as he ALWAYS has options to beat your options (even when you have meter), it's just a matter of risk vs reward. SPD blows up your blocking/teching, DP blows up anything not ex counter or block, and tanden catches backdash (and sometimes backjump) for full combos. But SPD is a huge risk, DP without meter is a huge risk, and even tanden can be a huge risk. If you punish hard and reset the neutral game every time he guesses wrong, you go a long way in the MU.
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"Some things are worth waiting for?!"
#10Dark Symphony(Topic Creator)Posted 12/10/2012 12:10:18 PM
Awesome. Great info.


This is a silly question but what's "Tanden/Tandem?"

I thought he had a tanden ultra but is there a regular special move known as tanden? Is it the kick? I'll try to check in practice mode later.

I'll mess around with that anti-air timing but it looked pretty hopeless to me when I tried it in the match up. Maybe in practice mode without the pressure I can better observe the timing.