Is there no way to make an expensive 2D side scroller game?

#21DesperateMonkey(Topic Creator)Posted 8/22/2012 2:52:04 PM
1. You are completely misinterpretting what I said. My statement regarding what 2D games can do with online was saying that there is always more that can be done. People are acting like 2D games don't benefit from online or better graphics or more content, etc.

2. What makes you believe games like Gears of War could expect better sales by adding horde mode or beast mode? Was Forge mode in Halo also a surefire way to increase sales for cost? Hows about the replays?

These games all sell a fraction of the copies as NSMBWii yet spend more money to get less return. Nintendo also spends way more money on less returns for their own 3D titles.

"The vocal group on the internet always cries for online modes, the truth is that i strongly doubt that an online mode would benefit certain games all that much because their real world audience is different from the people here on gamefaqs."

You just said the vocal internet minority. Who knows if thats me or you... there are probably hundreds of millions of online gamers. XBL proved that people love online as long as you make it convenient.

3. Who ever said the collision detection was unintentional? Straw man much? Money wouldn't have changed the existence of collision. It would have made it better so that people wouldn't just resort to A button.

"Miyamoto wanted a game where interactivity between players is strong and many people actually prefer this over games like DKCR, where players play at the same time but barely interact."

Doesn't matter what people prefer in a different game. We aren't talking about design changes. You've completely missed the point. The point of more money is to do what you already do but do it better.

"I also think the level design generally works pretty well with any number of players, it's easier with 2 players and harder with 4. If your friends need the bubble too much they are bad, live with it."

No I need the bubble too. I thought we were talking about the majority? Now we are arbitrarily talking about the small minority who is super pro at Mario games? This has nothing to do with whether you are good either. I played 2 player with my gf when this released and I could not progress unless she did. She would also often block me or cancel one of my jumps that it would kill me so I just had to practice being able to press A all the time.

4. "If you want pure 2d sprites, you can only do so much."

And your saying that NSMBWii, DKCR and KEY have reached the peak??? No there is a lot that could be done. In fact, one of the reasons SFIV went with 3D is because it is extremely hard to make a ton of animation frames for detailed 2D art in HD.

5. Money will help here.

6. Rayman should stay the way it is. It isn't going to sell that many copies. A game like NSMBWii or DKCR which sells into the multi millions though, they could at least spend quite a bit more than they did. Do you think the 2 years it cost to make DKCR equated to the cost of Gears of War or Skyward Sword, both games which sold significantly less?


"I say wait and see. Look at Rayman Legends, look at Puppeteer, look at what Nintendo will do with Wario, DK, Kirby and Yoshi on the Wii U."

I am waiting but I hope it is more than just HD. I hope they become ambitious with game design, online, progression and content.

I certainly hope you are correct about the 2D genres moving forward because I am going to be disappointed when the 9th generation rolls around and NSMB Wii R(?) is at the pinnacle of the genre by only adding another animal suit. Developers need to stop using 2D games as a point to be lazy.
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#22PedroMontanaPosted 8/22/2012 3:53:14 PM
DesperateMonkey posted...
1. You are completely misinterpretting what I said. My statement regarding what 2D games can do with online was saying that there is always more that can be done. People are acting like 2D games don't benefit from online or better graphics or more content, etc.

The graphics of NSMBW were underwhelming (after the better looking 2d sections in SMG 1&2) and the graphics of DKCR were insulting (after seeing MUCH better character models in Jungle Beat), but yes, the possibilities of what can be done in a 2d platformer are limited if you don't want to fill the stages with distracting fluff.
I don't think sales of most of these games would have benefited much from online, i know you disagree, but Nintendo agrees and honestly, the sales of NSMBW don't leave that much room for improvement.



2. What makes you believe games like Gears of War could expect better sales by adding horde mode or beast mode?
Well, they certainly expected it to help.


These games all sell a fraction of the copies as NSMBWii yet spend more money to get less return. Nintendo also spends way more money on less returns for their own 3D titles.
Well, i'm sure many of these people would prefer to sell more and spend less.

"The vocal group on the internet always cries for online modes, the truth is that i strongly doubt that an online mode would benefit certain games all that much because their real world audience is different from the people here on gamefaqs."

You just said the vocal internet minority. Who knows if thats me or you... there are probably hundreds of millions of online gamers.

Well, we have no studies on this question. I don't think it would have sold more.


XBL proved that people love online as long as you make it convenient.
The audiences that play the most online on 360 might be different from those that play retail 2d platformers on Nintendo consoles.



3. Who ever said the collision detection was unintentional? Straw man much? Money wouldn't have changed the existence of collision. It would have made it better so that people wouldn't just resort to A button.
The collision detection is likely exactly how they want it to be. You're "better" is merely how you'd prefer it to be.

Doesn't matter what people prefer in a different game. We aren't talking about design changes. You've completely missed the point. The point of more money is to do what you already do but do it better.
If you don't want design changes, there is nothing that can be done at all. In the eyes of those who made NSMBW's collision detection, it's likely exactly how it is supposed to be.


"I also think the level design generally works pretty well with any number of players, it's easier with 2 players and harder with 4. If your friends need the bubble too much they are bad, live with it."

No I need the bubble too. I thought we were talking about the majority? Now we are arbitrarily talking about the small minority who is super pro at Mario games?
The really bad majority does likely not have a problem with simply using the bubble a lot. In the end, using the bubble in your advantage is a gameplay mechanic anyway.

This has nothing to do with whether you are good either. I played 2 player with my gf when this released and I could not progress unless she did. She would also often block me or cancel one of my jumps that it would kill me so I just had to practice being able to press A all the time.
So you had to learn a gameplay mechanic?
Also, while i also had to use the bubble sometimes, i don't remember any situations where it was 100% necessary for one player to use the bubble.
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No More Heroes
#23PedroMontanaPosted 8/22/2012 4:16:50 PM
4. "If you want pure 2d sprites, you can only do so much."

And your saying that NSMBWii, DKCR and KEY have reached the peak??? No there is a lot that could be done.

NSMBW and DKCR obviously leave room for improvement. KEY actually looks exactly like the excellent artwork it's based on, so no, outside of HD there is no room for improvement.



5. Money will help here.
No, money can not change the fact that local coop woldn't work with a game that takes full advantage of 2.5d like Kirby 64 or Klonoa.

6. Rayman should stay the way it is. It isn't going to sell that many copies.
Rayman has a lot of sales potential. Having some features over Mario that can be clearly pointed out might actually be important.

A game like NSMBWii or DKCR which sells into the multi millions though, they could at least spend quite a bit more than they did.
You're asking the one who is selling better to spend money out of charity(Mario/DK), while you discourage the one with growth potential not to try to invest in additional features(Rayman).

Do you think the 2 years it cost to make DKCR equated to the cost of Gears of War or Skyward Sword, both games which sold significantly less?
So Nintendo's 2d teams are supposed to spend more money because others spend more money on products that sell less? Why, charity?


"I say wait and see. Look at Rayman Legends, look at Puppeteer, look at what Nintendo will do with Wario, DK, Kirby and Yoshi on the Wii U."

I am waiting but I hope it is more than just HD. I hope they become ambitious with game design, online, progression and content.

I certainly hope you are correct about the 2D genres moving forward because I am going to be disappointed when the 9th generation rolls around and NSMB Wii R(?) is at the pinnacle of the genre by only adding another animal suit. Developers need to stop using 2D games as a point to be lazy.


I think we'll see growth in conted and features.
But in 7 years, when the next console NSMB comes out, it will stick close to the old formula, because that the point of NSMB.
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No More Heroes
#24VenomSymbiotePosted 8/22/2012 5:19:46 PM
I just want a huge 2D Zelda game. Link to the Past was so awesome. I want something with multiple worlds, 20+ dungeons, random items that you don't even need to beat the game like Link to the Past' cape. I want to explore and be rewarded for my curiosity, not find a hole in the ground only to be rewarded with a cow and 20 rupees. :/
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#25DTY3Posted 8/22/2012 10:21:28 PM
Lol you still tryna tell everyone 21 is my alt?? Cause uh, he isn't.

Why would my alt be made before my main and have less Karma?
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#26DTY3Posted 8/22/2012 10:25:00 PM
VenomSymbiote posted...
I just want a huge 2D Zelda game. Link to the Past was so awesome. I want something with multiple worlds, 20+ dungeons, random items that you don't even need to beat the game like Link to the Past' cape. I want to explore and be rewarded for my curiosity, not find a hole in the ground only to be rewarded with a cow and 20 rupees. :/


This.
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#27diedje81Posted 8/22/2012 10:26:28 PM
diedje81 posted...
Why do you dodge questions? Also, great. More generalizations. Now ALL 2d gaming is "uninspired"? What happened to your precious xbla? Btw you're a noob at contra so what would you know?


Answer the questions, DM
#28DesperateMonkey(Topic Creator)Posted 8/22/2012 11:31:16 PM
Looks like there are quite a few attention starved posters in this topic that keep following me around everywhere... Guess they (him) can't take a hint.

@Pedro

1. Other games add online modes without even know if they will increase sales. Bioshock 2 did it and so did Dead Space. So did GTAIV even though no one was asking for online GTA and they knew they were going to sell ridiculous amounts anyways. The argument that online adds absolutely no sales to 2D games is not an argument. 3D studios have already done it to games people only care about the SP for. It isn't charity, people will associate your game with progression and quality and you can continue selling more for longer.

2. Again, I don't agree with your statement at all that DKCR and NSMBWii wouldn't benefit just from adding the ability to play online. You say XBL gamers are different from the Wii gamers. XBL brought those gamers because of its great online, not the other way around and now it makes them a billion+ a year. Despite being a paid service, XBL is far more populated than the PS3 despite it being free.

3. Your argument about collision and design is kind of silly to me. Its like a game has bad platforming and badly timed jumps or is too cluttered and imprecise but instead of using more time to clean up distances, hit boxes and placements, you have to completely scrap platforming?

Also, the vast majority has no problem with bubbles? That we don't know. All we know is that bubbles are a bad way to play the game. The majority are quite bad and the game people quickly realize, is much easier and less frustrating with one person playing at a time. A co-op mode that encourages single player is terrible. Everyone casual person I've played this game with hates using bubbles. They feel the challenge is now just pressing a button rather than platforming which is why they rather suffer bad platforming than just doing A buttons. I've played with kids, women, men and it is always frustrating and slows down the gameplay by a lot. The only way to be good enough that the both of you are super coordinated and can go through a level without constantly stopping or just riding on the A button is if you spend a lot of time playing the mode together which is extremely difficult for people without online.

4. You say there is so much to be done and then you say DKCR and NSMBWii looks like ass. Wasn't that my exact point? Doesn't matter that they can't spend budgets like GTA. They should at least make the effort to make it look as best as it can but they don't even do that even though it doesn't cost nearly as much. This is exactly my point. Low standards for 2D games.

5. Don't get it. Money always helps in this department.

6. You use sarcasm to try and lend strength to your argument but you know it doesn't make sense. It is not feasible for Rayman to spend massive amounts of money. It will never recoup the cost and will only ensure the closing of that development studio as well as major losses to Ubisoft.

DKCR and NSMBWii can always sell more. Call of Duty sells 25 million every year so NSMBWii has not hit the pinnacle of success. Not saying it should release every year but it could release more frequently or just plain sell more. DKCR isn't anywhere close to the pinnacle and has a lot of room to grow.


Your post seems to indicate that the 2D genres like platforming will never go anywhere beyond what it is now. I find this to be a ridiculous statement looking at what indie developers are doing with traditional mechanics.

Look at SMG as well. They added gravity gameplay and a very different theme and it was a lot of fun. NSMBWii can't come up with new stages. new themes and gravity in a two D environment? Can't it come up with anything? Again, people and developers just seem to put a low bar on 2D.
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