Why Wii U is weaker than the 360 and PS3, explained intuitively.

#61Rennik RepotsirPosted 1/11/2013 8:31:26 AM
Since I'm a user and not a developer, I tend to look at games more than specs; how enjoyable they are opposed to how they work. So the only thing I can contribute to the argument at hand is:

You can add "&t=XmXs" to jump to a specific time in the video, so:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKF9GOE2q38&t=5m16s

Roller-coasters are fun too; but I don't build them, so the data on angles, weight and aerodynamics hold no weight to which roller-coasters I want to ride...
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#623D_Shado(Topic Creator)Posted 1/11/2013 9:54:40 AM
That's fine, just remember that the Wii U is provably weaker than the 360 and PS3 whenever someone mentions otherwise.
#63jmichaelbpPosted 1/11/2013 10:00:43 AM
40Dribylf posted...
Killeryoshi8 posted...
jmichaelbp posted...
And yet ME3 runs better on the U than it does on the PS3.


No it doesn't.


http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-mass-effect-3-wii-u-face-off

Aside from some cute but non-essential gamepad features, it's safe to say that Mass Effect 3 on Wii U is a solid enough conversion but offers nothing of substance to elevate it over the existing Xbox 360 and PC versions of the game - it's clearly an improvement over the lacklustre PlayStation 3 release with a higher performance level

^
Will Yoshi reply to this?
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#64omniryuPosted 1/11/2013 10:17:17 AM
3D_Shado posted...
That's fine, just remember that the Wii U is provably weaker than the 360 and PS3 whenever someone mentions otherwise.


Except, it isn't a simple black and white as you think. They're different strengths and weakness in each.

Wii U weakness:
Weaker CPU
Slow ram bandwidth?

Ps360:
Weaker GPU
Smaller ram
Smaller edram
No dsp
No dedicated hardware for the OS.

And really we won't know what the results will be when Nintendo will provide a better toolset. So really other than frame rate and blotchy shadow the U can graphically surpass the PS3 and 360. And the only reason there is a question mark next to slow bandwith is because we don't know if developers can use the edram to work with the main ram. So we can see a bump in visual, I can't guarantee it. But it isn't that simple. Not to mention we can't say what is 100% possible on the Wii U. And factoring in design of the game.
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#65aether17Posted 1/11/2013 11:57:02 AM
omniryu posted...
3D_Shado posted...
That's fine, just remember that the Wii U is provably weaker than the 360 and PS3 whenever someone mentions otherwise.


Except, it isn't a simple black and white as you think. They're different strengths and weakness in each.

Wii U weakness:
Weaker CPU
Slow ram bandwidth?

Ps360:
Weaker GPU
Smaller ram
Smaller edram
No dsp
No dedicated hardware for the OS.

And really we won't know what the results will be when Nintendo will provide a better toolset. So really other than frame rate and blotchy shadow the U can graphically surpass the PS3 and 360. And the only reason there is a question mark next to slow bandwith is because we don't know if developers can use the edram to work with the main ram. So we can see a bump in visual, I can't guarantee it. But it isn't that simple. Not to mention we can't say what is 100% possible on the Wii U. And factoring in design of the game.


Still don't understand how people simply go on to say the CPU is weaker, it's not. The bandwidth hasn't been much of a problem based on the ports I've seen. Considering how Wii U is using RAM for the game and gamepad, I would imagine huge issues showing up, yet there aren't any that'll make one say "oh look, the bandwidth is causing problems.". The 360's RAM maxes out at 22.4 gb/s total; however that's with read + write, both at which are half of that at 11.2 gb/s. If the U RAM wasn't designed in that manner (if it only reads), then there would be no problem with the speed as some might suggest. We don't know that yet I believe, though I think it's likely the case. I doubt it's like the 360 RAM and reads+writes therefore gimping it at 6.4 gb/s each.
#66zalmutePosted 1/11/2013 11:59:38 AM
I think TC is carrying bricks in his pants.
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#67tizzywilkillyouPosted 1/11/2013 12:25:37 PM(edited)
What you forgot to mention is in the third case, the guy with three arms has to carry the bricks a much shorter distance than in the first two cases.

Google "pipeline depth".

0.5/10


EDIT: Caught up on the rest of the thread. TC got dominated. And he also keeps confusing "more pipelines" with "deeper pipelines".

Deeper pipelines at higher frequencies are only better when everything is highly predictable. Shorter pipelines will usually (not always) be better for modern interactive games.

And the fact that the modern Core architecture from Intel is based on Pentium 3 quickly removes the ammunition from those claiming "lulz it's based on broadway/gekko; it must be horrible and old".
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#68googlerPosted 1/11/2013 12:30:24 PM
jmichaelbp posted...
And yet ME3 runs better on the 360 than it does on the U.



~fix'd
#69neoVIVI222Posted 1/11/2013 2:32:07 PM
Asellus posted...
What is really interesting with the Wii U CPU is that the Wii and GC did not support OoOE and this is even more complicated than adding in pipelining.

That's not true. Broadway (The Wii's CPU) did most certainly have it
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broadway_%28microprocessor%29

And while it's hard to find much info on Gecko (GC's) this site
http://hitmen.c02.at/files/yagcd/yagcd/chap2.html

- lists it as a feature of its too.

So even if the Wii U CPU is 3 modified Broadway cores those cores have been highly modified to the point where they should not be called Broadway cores.

Kind of just lost the basis of your argument there, I'm afraid.

Addendum:

Mind you, both Cell and Xenon are kind of p4'ish in that their high clock speeds disguise a pretty lousy instruction-per-clock ratio so I'm sure Hollywood's actually pretty competitive with them even at 1/3rd the clock speed. Doesn't change the fact though that's a pretty dismal result for a chip seven years newer.


Derp you are right, could have sworn gecko and broadway were in order execution.
#70AsellusPosted 1/11/2013 3:39:02 PM
And the fact that the modern Core architecture from Intel is based on Pentium 3 quickly removes the ammunition from those claiming "lulz it's based on broadway/gekko; it must be horrible and old".

It might be based on it in the sense that "After Net Burst flopped Intel scrapped the P4 design and went back to the P3's for a base to start building off of" but it's hardly unaltered, there's at least a half-dozen tocks in there from Core 1 to current Sandy Bridge chips.

The Wii U cpu on the other hand really does look to be just a tri-core broadway with more cache and clock speed. I'm not saying it's worse than Xenon or Cell but it is bloody disappointing it's not wiping the floor with them.