Valid criticisms.

#291DarthFloatyPosted 1/16/2013 1:51:36 AM
DemonDog666 posted...
DarthFloaty posted...
DemonDog666 posted...
DarthFloaty posted...
I know that the Wii U would be sold at a loss without it's tablet controller, which costs about $100. And I know that Microsoft wants a Kinect that costs about as much or more than the Tablet, and possibly a projector (IIRC). And Sony is in a difficult financial situation, and cheaper systems historically sell better than more expensive ones. I don't find it reasonable to think that both systems will be made to overpower the Wii U by a gap beyond the Dreamcast to Xbox gap (which agaain, I'm pretty sure is many folds).

This is another topic that is pointless to debate. We both have logical reasons to believe what we do, and we both see the companies going in different directions forward. So I propose we call it good, wait and see what happens, and then talk about it then. :)


ps4/next xbox can outdo wiiU at 400 without selling at a loss... I don't think you understand just how much Nintendo cheaped out on wiiU and Nintendo is barely selling at a loss on basic model a


I understand the hardware just as well as you do. Just because I have a different opinion is no reason to assume I don't know what I'm talking about.

Again, the Xbox is close to the Wii in power. The Wii is something like x3-4 (IIRC) of the Gamecube, and the Gamecube is much stronger than the PS2. The PS2 is stronger than the Dreamcast overall. And the DC could likely have handled Xbox ports. Outdoing means nothing. Outdoing by several folds means nothing. It needs to be a gap beyond this:

Dream Cast -- PS2 ----- Gamecube ---- Xbox -- Wii

For both systems for it to be a huge enough gap that the Wii U won't be able to handle ports at all, like you're suggesting.

And lets not forget, the Wii is able to run MW3 from the 360, just lacking shaders & running at a significantly lower resolution.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mn2KcH-fFw4

So even a gap that's only a bit under the Wii to 360 gap, ports could still work. And again, BOTH systems need to be so much stronger for it to be unlikely for the Wii U to get ports, like you think.

Again, not to offend, I'm done with this for now. It's an interesting debate, but I don't think there is much more to be said at this time. Someone else can take it up, or we can just wait. Waiting is what I'm going for.


ps3 is insanely more powerful then ps2 in bench marks you get numbers in the hundreds times more and even on paper it's twice as powerful as 360, so needing to be 7 or 15x more powerful to beat wiiU isn't that hard when it's last gen.


You always bring me back. I love you. <3 Wanna make out?

PS3 can't emulate PS2. You need to be about ~30-40x stronger to emulate or something, based on architecture. So something doesn't add up.
#292DemonDog666(Topic Creator)Posted 1/16/2013 1:57:58 AM
DarthFloaty posted...
You always bring me back. I love you. <3 Wanna make out?

PS3 can't emulate PS2. You need to be about ~30-40x stronger to emulate or something, based on architecture. So something doesn't add up.


On paper and real world are two different things, real world I've seen it quoted as high as 17x. But you were using on paper with wiiU.
#293DarthFloatyPosted 1/16/2013 2:06:31 AM
DemonDog666 posted...
DarthFloaty posted...
You always bring me back. I love you. <3 Wanna make out?

PS3 can't emulate PS2. You need to be about ~30-40x stronger to emulate or something, based on architecture. So something doesn't add up.


On paper and real world are two different things, real world I've seen it quoted as high as 17x. But you were using on paper with wiiU.


You did not answer my first question... ;-;

So if on paper weaker PS4720 is x10 (or x50) Wii U, and the stronger x15 (or x75), and real world for them is x7 and x10.5 respectively, then Wii U will still be able to run scaled down ports. Like how the Dreamcast likely could have from the 360, and how the Wii did with the 360. Right? I remember rumors from awhile ago bragging about the 720 having x6 the power of the Wii U... which would really not be a killer increase. But I've also heard people say the Wii U is several times stronger than the 360 (overall). So if we've got x3 and x6, then we have the 720 outclassing the 360 by x18, similar to PS2 - PS3 gap. And the Wii U still strong enough to handle down-scaled ports.
#294aether17Posted 1/16/2013 2:24:12 AM
DemonDog666 posted...


And the fact is wiiU won't be able to play any ps4/next xbox game that uses the cpu to any significant degree any more then a phone would.


And what makes you say that? I don't understand how downscaling the CPU tasks would be an impossible thing to do, you're making it seem like the CPU will be the reason for not receiving downports.! You're expecting the same gap in CPU power as Wii was to PS360?

DemonDog666 posted...
WiiU costs about the same to make then ps3 without the tablet controller. Think about that.


You purposely forgot that long post I wrote some time ago. And after knowing that one Wii U game will NOT allow the company to break even with Wii U sales, I can strongly feel like it has 180-200+$ worth of tech, easily able to create a system more powerful than PS3. Remember, the PS3 was horribly designed, a lot of its internals were priced way too high, especially its BluRay Drive, RSX and Cell, and they're still expensive. It only costs 40-ish$ to have 2GB DDR3 - 1600 RAM with a customized AMD 4770 GPU, while the weaker RSX alone costs about 40$ to make alone, 30-ish for Cell, 60-ish for the BluRay, 35-ish for the HardDrive. Wii U doesn't have a hard drive, so you can remove that costly expense. The Disk Drive probably costs a lot less than the BluRay. The CPU let's guess 25-30$. That's about 100-120$ already and it's already better than the PS3. Another 60-80$ should cover the casing, flash memory, controllers, assembly, and you've got yourself a Wii U console at around 200$ or slightly less, and it's more powerful than the PS3, it's not that hard (recall that many parts of the design were done (like the MCM) in order to reduce cost without reducing power).

It wont be hard for a console to be 350-400$ and over power Wii U obviously, but it wont be enough money to over power it like PS360 did to Wii. The PS3 cost 800+$ to make at launch for example, and they sold it for Five-hundred and Ninety-nine US dollars. The 360 cost 715$ to make at launch. That's over twice the rumored amounts for the PS4720. The systems wont be slouches, but they certainly wont be making the same power leap at those prices (350 - 400$).
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#295DemonDog666(Topic Creator)Posted 1/16/2013 2:24:41 AM
DarthFloaty posted...
You did not answer my first question... ;-;

So if on paper weaker PS4720 is x10 (or x50) Wii U, and the stronger x15 (or x75), and real world for them is x7 and x10.5 respectively, then Wii U will still be able to run scaled down ports. Like how the Dreamcast likely could have from the 360, and how the Wii did with the 360. Right? I remember rumors from awhile ago bragging about the 720 having x6 the power of the Wii U... which would really not be a killer increase. But I've also heard people say the Wii U is several times stronger than the 360 (overall). So if we've got x3 and x6, then we have the 720 outclassing the 360 by x18, similar to PS2 - PS3 gap. And the Wii U still strong enough to handle down-scaled ports.


Wii games were scaled so far back it was hard to call them the same game... I really don't see that disproving my point about wiiU being extremely unlike to get ports because it's so weak. Also Dreamcast wasn't as much weaker then xbox then you are letting on.
#296DarthFloatyPosted 1/16/2013 2:31:44 AM
DemonDog666 posted...
DarthFloaty posted...
You did not answer my first question... ;-;

So if on paper weaker PS4720 is x10 (or x50) Wii U, and the stronger x15 (or x75), and real world for them is x7 and x10.5 respectively, then Wii U will still be able to run scaled down ports. Like how the Dreamcast likely could have from the 360, and how the Wii did with the 360. Right? I remember rumors from awhile ago bragging about the 720 having x6 the power of the Wii U... which would really not be a killer increase. But I've also heard people say the Wii U is several times stronger than the 360 (overall). So if we've got x3 and x6, then we have the 720 outclassing the 360 by x18, similar to PS2 - PS3 gap. And the Wii U still strong enough to handle down-scaled ports.


Wii games were scaled so far back it was hard to call them the same game... I really don't see that disproving my point about wiiU being extremely unlike to get ports because it's so weak. Also Dreamcast wasn't as much weaker then xbox then you are letting on.


Sweetie, I'm not trying to prove anything. It's the internet, on a message board. I'm just talking tech specs with you, enjoying the conversation, and flirting lightly... or coming on to strong, hard to say.

The Dreamcast was weaker than the PS2, which was well overpowered by the GC, which was reasonably out powered by the Xbox. If the Wii U has a Dreamcast - Xbox gap with the weaker next gen system, it should be strong enough to get downscaled ports. Again, MW3 was pretty much the same game, just no shaders and lower res. Again, if you've got the Wii U being considerably stronger than the PS360 (as it is), and then a nice sized gap between it and the weaker PS4720, I think the gap between generations will be what people are expecting. The Wii U will be able to handle the multiplats, scaled down enough to notice, but they'll be fully playable.

Again, even if I'm off and it's closer (but not equal to) the Wii - 360 gap, it'll still run them. Add in similar architecture, and tech from the same era (2011 - 2012ish), and the Wii U will certainly be able to run them at a satisfying level. Maybe like Battlefield 3 on PS3 compared to Battlefield 3 on computer or something.
#297DemonDog666(Topic Creator)Posted 1/16/2013 2:43:32 AM
aether17 posted...
And what makes you say that? I don't understand how downscaling the CPU tasks would be an impossible thing to do, you're making it seem like the CPU will be the reason for not receiving downports.! You're expecting the same gap in CPU power as Wii was to PS360?

You purposely forgot that long post I wrote some time ago. And after knowing that one Wii U game will NOT allow the company to break even with Wii U sales, I can strongly feel like it has 180-200+$ worth of tech, easily able to create a system more powerful than PS3. Remember, the PS3 was horribly designed, a lot of its internals were priced way too high, especially its BluRay Drive, RSX and Cell, and they're still expensive. It only costs 40-ish$ to have 2GB DDR3 - 1600 RAM with a customized AMD 4770 GPU, while the weaker RSX alone costs about 40$ to make alone, 30-ish for Cell, 60-ish for the BluRay, 35-ish for the HardDrive. Wii U doesn't have a hard drive, so you can remove that costly expense. The Disk Drive probably costs a lot less than the BluRay. The CPU let's guess 25-30$. That's about 100-120$ already and it's already better than the PS3. Another 60-80$ should cover the casing, flash memory, controllers, assembly, and you've got yourself a Wii U console at around 200$ or slightly less, and it's more powerful than the PS3, it's not that hard (recall that many parts of the design were done (like the MCM) in order to reduce cost without reducing power).

It wont be hard for a console to be 350-400$ and over power Wii U obviously, but it wont be enough money to over power it like PS360 did to Wii. The PS3 cost 800+$ to make at launch for example, and they sold it for Five-hundred and Ninety-nine US dollars. The 360 cost 715$ to make at launch. That's over twice the rumored amounts for the PS4720. The systems wont be slouches, but they certainly wont be making the same power leap at those prices (350 - 400$).


Down-scaling the cpu is cutting into gameplay elements, which just isn't a viable solution for the majority of games, the games it has been done on for wii ports turned out horribly to where you don't even want to call them the same game. If the game isn't for the most part in tact I don't see the point.

I never saw that post, but the wiiU drive would cost more and ps3's blu ray drive is only a speed 2 so it's probably cheaper then that but who knows since they only make them for ps3s now where are you getting the prices from anyways? Because if you don't have a source I can't take them seriously (no offense).

The ps3 only costed so much because blu ray costed so much at the time, prices on blu ray have gone down significantly, and wiiU is using a 50 gig format too which is probably more expensive so that one goes out the window, also ps4 won't launch with extra costly hardware for BC like ps3 did and despite the cell being powerful it's not even close to it's full potential especially not at launch and was still running circles around wii same with 360. I really don't see it being hard to make something that wiiU can't get decent ports off of.
#298aether17Posted 1/16/2013 3:32:35 AM
DemonDog666 posted...


Down-scaling the cpu is cutting into gameplay elements, which just isn't a viable solution for the majority of games, the games it has been done on for wii ports turned out horribly to where you don't even want to call them the same game. If the game isn't for the most part in tact I don't see the point.

I never saw that post, but the wiiU drive would cost more and ps3's blu ray drive is only a speed 2 so it's probably cheaper then that but who knows since they only make them for ps3s now where are you getting the prices from anyways? Because if you don't have a source I can't take them seriously (no offense).

The ps3 only costed so much because blu ray costed so much at the time, prices on blu ray have gone down significantly, and wiiU is using a 50 gig format too which is probably more expensive so that one goes out the window, also ps4 won't launch with extra costly hardware for BC like ps3 did and despite the cell being powerful it's not even close to it's full potential especially not at launch and was still running circles around wii same with 360. I really don't see it being hard to make something that wiiU can't get decent ports off of.


Again, Wii games that were "downports" weren't the same not because of severe downscaling, but because they were developed separately from the PS360 versions, they weren't the same games because they were made on older engines (hence, they'll have simpler CPU tasks). The Wii didn't support programmable shaders, which was the primary reason for not receiving down ports directly from the PS360, Wii couldn't support UE3 due to mainly the lack of programmable shaders (the CPU made the problem a bit worse, but it could have been dealt with to some extent). No matter how much you tried to downscale, no programmable shaders = extremely costly to even consider. Wii U on the other hand, only has to worry about meeting the minimum requirements, and ports are pretty much set (it has the programmable shaders PS4720 will have, there's a reason why they're called "programmable", designed to be scaled), downscaling the CPU tasks wont be as bad as you think because since it'll at least run UE4 (even if the PS4720 games run CPU tasks at such a high amount of power). It'll be costly sure, but not near-impossible (like on Wii) due to the hardware. If Wii U couldn't support UE4, Mark Rein would have said so. If he believes Wii U is strong enough to support UE4 (due to being supremely scalable), then ports would be a matter of whether there's profit in it or not.

I was being generous with the prices (I lowered them on purpose from these) because the only source I could find where prices from the end of 2009:

http://www.playstationlifestyle.net/assets/uploads/2010/01/isuppi_teardown_ps3.jpg

No, the drive itself wouldn't cost like BluRay because it isn't exactly BluRay. The speed doesn't make it much more costly at all. BluRay was costly, yes, but so were Cell and RSX.
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#299darkjedilinkPosted 1/16/2013 7:57:32 AM
DemonDog666 posted...
ps4/next xbox can outdo wiiU at 400 without selling at a loss... I don't think you understand just how much Nintendo cheaped out on wiiU and Nintendo is barely selling at a loss on basic model a

Cuz you got inside info, don't you, mister "Pokemon is a Digimon ripoff?"
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#300Rasputin77Posted 1/16/2013 8:01:56 AM
"Valid"? Cri-... criticisms!? =/

VALID... criticisms? =O

Wha... I... but... errrrggghhhh... ---> http://alturl.com/cneob
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