Digital Foundry: Wii U

#81RusmurfPosted 2/5/2013 11:48:01 AM
The_Hyphenator posted...
kissdadookie posted...
The_Hyphenator posted...
kissdadookie posted...
NeoGAF if you haven't figured out yet, are TERRIBLE at tech analysis. Remember their claims about the 3DS GPU? HILARIOUSLY wrong. PROVEN wrong. Yet fanboys are STILL running with the VERY wrong analysis that originated from NeoGAF.


Considering that DF apparently can't even keep track of what card they're claiming the Wii U's GPU is based on (they claim it's a RV770 GPU, then state that it's based on a Radeon HD 4670, which uses a completely different GPU), I think I'll be listening to NeoGAF over DF.

Besides, I've seen far more people trolling Nintendo cite NeoGAF as a source than people supporting them. It's hardly a haven for "fanboys."


Actually, it doesn't make a difference between RV770 and RV700. Why? Because from a performance aspect, they are pretty much a match. Only difference is that one is fabricated using the 45nm process, but performance-wise, they are essentially the same parts.

It's like how the PS3 and 360 both started using the 45nm process for their processors, didn't change the processors though, just changed the size of their packaging.

So no, DF was not wrong at all or throwing out inaccurate information. DF analysis is always about performance, that's it. So if they use RV770 and RV700 interchangeably, it makes NO difference in the context they are using it in.


Um, yeah, no. The R770 is a MUCH better chip:

http://www.gpureview.com/ati-rv770-chip-151.html
http://www.gpureview.com/ati-rv730-chip-156.html

Oh, and FYI, both the 770 and the 730 were manufactured using a 55nm process, not a 45nm process and certainly not the 40nm that has been confirmed for the Wii U for a while now. So you're wrong on that point, too.


Who bought the WiiU thinking it was going to have Next Gen visuals? Not sure why anyone even cares.

Just to help explain this better, rv700 and rv770 is the same thing in intial production. Which DF understands and apparently most on this board don't. Cheaper cards have perfomance crippled.
#82_Sovereign_Posted 2/5/2013 11:49:05 AM
Terotrous posted...
I can't believe they missed the obvious answer that the ports look bad because they weren't optimized for the hardware. That's like porting 101.

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#83lp913Posted 2/5/2013 11:51:12 AM
Terotrous posted...
I can't believe they missed the obvious answer that the ports look bad because they weren't optimized for the hardware. That's like porting 101.

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#84The_HyphenatorPosted 2/5/2013 11:51:23 AM
Rusmurf posted...
Who bought the WiiU thinking it was going to have Next Gen visuals? Not sure why anyone even cares.

Just to help explain this better, rv700 and rv770 is the same thing in intial production. Which DF understands and apparently most on this board don't. Cheaper cards have perfomance crippled.


But then they went and compared performance to a crippled version of the chip while claiming it was the un-crippled version, i.e., the 4670. So their analysis is STILL faulty, even giving them the benefit of the doubt and agreeing that it IS an AMD chip, which Chipworks established that it isn't.

It's just a terribly incompetent write-up all around. NeoGAF is right to be ticked off over it.
#85darkjedilinkPosted 2/5/2013 11:59:00 AM
Rusmurf posted...
Who bought the WiiU thinking it was going to have Next Gen visuals? Not sure why anyone even cares.

Just to help explain this better, rv700 and rv770 is the same thing in intial production. Which DF understands and apparently most on this board don't. Cheaper cards have perfomance crippled.


And initial production has nothing to do with this anyway, considering the die process differences between an RV700 and the Wii U's GPU.
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#86PendragoonPosted 2/5/2013 12:02:05 PM
The_Hyphenator posted...
PENDRAG0ON posted...
Chipworks has stated that the GPU is 100% custom and is not based on any existing AMD design. It has no relation to the 4000 series. All this talk of R770 vs R730 vs R700 is pretty much pointless.


Yeah, I know. It's just impressive how much DF screwed up their own analysis, even assuming that the GPU was an AMD chip.

Sadly, a lot more people are going to read that article than NeoGAF's breakdown. Which means we can expect to see a lot more ill-informed haters online in the near future...


I wonder, will they pull it or rewrite it once enough people call them on it? No way they will leave it as is and embarrass themselves further.
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#87RusmurfPosted 2/5/2013 12:02:59 PM
darkjedilink posted...
Rusmurf posted...
Who bought the WiiU thinking it was going to have Next Gen visuals? Not sure why anyone even cares.

Just to help explain this better, rv700 and rv770 is the same thing in intial production. Which DF understands and apparently most on this board don't. Cheaper cards have perfomance crippled.


And initial production has nothing to do with this anyway, considering the die process differences between an RV700 and the Wii U's GPU.


Then why are you going on about an rv770?
#88kissdadookiePosted 2/5/2013 12:05:33 PM
The_Hyphenator posted...
PENDRAG0ON posted...
Chipworks has stated that the GPU is 100% custom and is not based on any existing AMD design. It has no relation to the 4000 series. All this talk of R770 vs R730 vs R700 is pretty much pointless.


Yeah, I know. It's just impressive how much DF screwed up their own analysis, even assuming that the GPU was an AMD chip.

Sadly, a lot more people are going to read that article than NeoGAF's breakdown. Which means we can expect to see a lot more ill-informed haters online in the near future...


First off, it's not an off the shelf Radeon 4xxx series. That's why it's not an existing AMD design. HOWEVER, it's based off the Radeon 4xxx series. Essentially the foundation they used was based off the Radeon 4xxx and the breakdown exposes this. It's like how the PS3 CELL is not based off of any existing IBM design however, the main CPU cores are iterations of Power PC CPUs which then later ended up on the 360.

So no, all this talk about R7xx series GPUs is NOT pointless since that is what the Wii U's GPU is based off of. Knowing this FACT, we know the ballpark performance of the GPU. We also know that the Wii U GPU is running at a lower clock than even the mid-range Radeon 4xxx series GPUs and gimped of a few processing units. So yeah, it's not a off the shelf part because right off the bat we know that the Radeon 4xxx off the shelf GPUs are actually better performers. We also know that the GPU silicon contains some extra processing units and memory however, this is the same 3DS PICA200 argument all over again, just because it contains some extra bells and whistles, YOU ARE NOT GOING TO EXCEED THE BASE TECHNOLOGY THAT THE GPU IS BASED OFF OF. Same argument for the PICA200 on GameFAQs and NeoGAF, people kept ASSUMING that just because of the extra bells and whistles, it makes the PICA200 a powerful part, the reality is, the PICA200 GPU in the 3DS is actually quite a bit behind even the GPU in the iPhone 3GS. To this day there are still people trying to sell the complete nonsense NeoGAF speculations as fact.

As for the person in an earlier post telling me "What does knowing physics have to do with anything?" It does. Physics dictates the size of the die. Physics dictates the number of transistors on the die. Based off of those known quantities of the Wii U GPU, we know that it's not based off a Radeon 5xxx GPU (or later series), simply due to the physical size of the die. The Chipworks breakdown also shows us the sizes of these components on the GPU which leads to the Wii U GPU being a very close match for the Radeon 4xxx series GPUs processed at 45nm (the only question here is if it's 45nm or the 40nm fabrication, but it's clearly one of them). This is why understanding the laws of physics is important if you want to analyze things like GPU dies.
#89The_HyphenatorPosted 2/5/2013 12:06:06 PM
PENDRAG0ON posted...
The_Hyphenator posted...
PENDRAG0ON posted...
Chipworks has stated that the GPU is 100% custom and is not based on any existing AMD design. It has no relation to the 4000 series. All this talk of R770 vs R730 vs R700 is pretty much pointless.


Yeah, I know. It's just impressive how much DF screwed up their own analysis, even assuming that the GPU was an AMD chip.

Sadly, a lot more people are going to read that article than NeoGAF's breakdown. Which means we can expect to see a lot more ill-informed haters online in the near future...


I wonder, will they pull it or rewrite it once enough people call them on it? No way they will leave it as is and embarrass themselves further.


Probably, but even if they do issue a retraction, it'll never reach as many people as the original story did.
#90RusmurfPosted 2/5/2013 12:06:11 PM
The_Hyphenator posted...
Rusmurf posted...
Who bought the WiiU thinking it was going to have Next Gen visuals? Not sure why anyone even cares.

Just to help explain this better, rv700 and rv770 is the same thing in intial production. Which DF understands and apparently most on this board don't. Cheaper cards have perfomance crippled.


But then they went and compared performance to a crippled version of the chip while claiming it was the un-crippled version, i.e., the 4670. So their analysis is STILL faulty, even giving them the benefit of the doubt and agreeing that it IS an AMD chip, which Chipworks established that it isn't.

It's just a terribly incompetent write-up all around. NeoGAF is right to be ticked off over it.


I think the only people that are bothered by that are the ones nitpicking for some reason to argue its some magical extreme GPU. Nintendo is buying older modified components, they've been doing this for awhile. It saves alot of $.