I'd love it if Deus Ex: HR had stylus control for gameplay.

#21elheber(Topic Creator)Posted 3/25/2013 4:43:03 PM
You don't toggle the camera-lock. If you aren't holding the shoulder button then you have free aim, otherwise it's a light-gun game. Simple. You can quickly reposition the camera by letting go of the shoulder button. If you want to shoot where your quick inventory button is, just hold the shoulder button like you'd always do to shoot. There's no need for the inventory button to be there while you're shooting anyway. Similarly, the difference between reloading by tapping an empty space and shooting at said empty space, is just whether you're holding the left shoulder button to shoot or not.

What's wrong with both sprinting and crouching on the left analog? Sprint like you do in CoD and toggle crouch like you do in DXHR. It isn't complex in the least.

Throwing isn't a gesture. Drag the stylus from the bottom of the screen and you see line signifying the arc of the throw to wherever you pointer is landing at. Let go to throw.

Tell me what's the point of a laser sight when there is no "center" aim in the first place. The same goes for ironsights.
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"A closet intellectual, he acts dumb to impress women."
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#22EoinPosted 3/26/2013 12:49:37 AM
elheber posted...
You don't toggle the camera-lock. If you aren't holding the shoulder button then you have free aim, otherwise it's a light-gun game. Simple. You can quickly reposition the camera by letting go of the shoulder button. If you want to shoot where your quick inventory button is, just hold the shoulder button like you'd always do to shoot.

Perhaps toggle is the wrong word, but it's still not intuitive and it still means you can't look and shoot at the same time.

elheber posted...
There's no need for the inventory button to be there while you're shooting anyway. Similarly, the difference between reloading by tapping an empty space and shooting at said empty space, is just whether you're holding the left shoulder button to shoot or not.

More model nonsense then.

elheber posted...
What's wrong with both sprinting and crouching on the left analog? Sprint like you do in CoD and toggle crouch like you do in DXHR. It isn't complex in the least.

I've already explained what's wrong. Why are you asking me to repeat? You could have just gone back to see. Since you don't seem to be willing to do that for some reason, I shall restate: it means you can't do both at the same time, and it means that you can't crouch or uncrouch while moving. It's just silly.

elheber posted...
Throwing isn't a gesture. Drag the stylus from the bottom of the screen and you see line signifying the arc of the throw to wherever you pointer is landing at. Let go to throw.

I'm unsure why you said "throwing isn't a gesture" - firstly, because nobody actually said that it was a gesture, but also secondly because whether a gesture or not isn't relevant to why your throwing system is bad. Again: while throwing you cannot see most or all of the right hand side of the screen. Screen visibility is a huge issue anyway, but here you've got an aiming control where you cannot see where you're aiming ~50% of the time and that's broken.

elheber posted...
Tell me what's the point of a laser sight when there is no "center" aim in the first place. The same goes for ironsights.

The point of both is to aim, before shooting. In your control scheme, aiming and shooting are the same thing even though they're intended to be distinct, separate actions. You're meant to be able to aim, carefully line up a shot, and then press a button, confident in the fact that the aim won't change as a result of pressing that button. Your scheme breaks that confidence. Also, as I said and as you completely failed to address, in your scheme, you cannot zoom without shooting and that's beyond ridiculous.

I'm unsure why you're still trying to argue in favour of this scheme. Nobody here likes it and this is a board that has disproportionately favourable views about stylus camera controls. You haven't been able to convince anyone that it would work "beautifully" or even not-terribly. Sorry, but it's just a bad idea. They happen, and the best thing to do when you have one is to acknowledge that rather than trying to patch it up and make it work.
#23elheber(Topic Creator)Posted 3/26/2013 7:36:25 AM
I can tell what you're referencing without you needing to split my post into sections, Eoin. It makes it very difficult to quote you on my phone when you do.

I addressed you issues and your response was to shrug it off as "more modal nonsense" and unintuitive, when in fact L to be able to shoot is just as intuitive as how RE4 did it. Almost exactly, to be precise. Reload and all. Gamers can handle this low level of complexity with no problem.

it means you can't do both [sprinting and crouching] at the same time...

Why would you even need to? You're reaching the definition of "splitting hairs" when you point out that you can't be holding the analog sick forward at the moment you want to crouch. It's a tiny fraction of a second more to do one after the other.

I assumed you thought throwing was a gesture when you called it imprecise, when it's in fact more precise than the standard controls.

Complaining about not being able to see past your hand is a complaint about touch controls in general, such as those in Sribblenauts: U. If you have a problem with them as a whole, I'm not going to try to change your mind. That's beyond the scope of this thread.

You can cancel the zoom and shot by releasing the left shoulder button. You don't shoot without that button held down, after all. If you really want the ADS that much, holding the stylus down brings up the weapon (and zoom) for all semi-automatic weapons, and releasing fires. Once again, releasing L cancels both. Unscoped, hipfire shots are just taps. For almanac weapons, the first bullet lands where your stylus did.

The only thing I patched up was your request for ADS.
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"A closet intellectual, he acts dumb to impress women."
| 3DS: Ulysses | PSN: Riot_Guy |
#24EoinPosted 3/26/2013 8:14:39 AM
elheber posted...
I can tell what you're referencing without you needing to split my post into sections, Eoin. It makes it very difficult to quote you on my phone when you do.

It makes it easier to write a response when I can address each point below the point itself. It's also easier for others to read, should they care to. I wouldn't even consider responding to a discussion of this scope on a phone - if you choose to do so then that's nice but I don't see how quoting me is necessary - just respond. I'll figure it out.

elheber posted...
I addressed you issues and your response was to shrug it off as "more modal nonsense" and unintuitive

No there was a lot more to my response than that, obviously, and "addressing the issue" by explaining an unintuitive modal control system isn't actually addressing the issue at all.

elheber posted...
when in fact L to be able to shoot is just as intuitive as how RE4 did it. Almost exactly, to be precise. Reload and all. Gamers can handle this low level of complexity with no problem.

I don't care how RE4 did it. We're talking about a completely different game with very different mechanics with a completely different (hypothetical) control scheme.

elheber posted...
Why would you even need to?

Why would you not be able to? "Why would you need to do that?" is the typical cry of misunderstanding from all advocates of modal controls - the idea that you should be able to do things is sacrificed to, and for, a control system that isn't good enough.

Just think about how that's going to work. Imagine I'm crouched and trying to move forwards - towards some cover that's sufficent to just about hide me right now but I'd prefer to be closer to it. I need to be careful because there's a few enemies around and they're firing in my general direction. I want to pop up briefly to see what enemies are attacking me and where they are, so I press crouch to pop up. Except that's sprint because of your control system.

All I really need to do to answer this question, though, is point at the existing control scheme. Sprint is (rather obviously) separate to crouch. Why? Because it should be, because the developers wanted it to be, because there is no need for them to ever have to share a control.

elheber posted...
You're reaching the definition of "splitting hairs" when you point out that you can't be holding the analog sick forward at the moment you want to crouch. It's a tiny fraction of a second more to do one after the other.

I tiny fraction of a second that I need to think about, and ensure that I spend, each and every time I want to crouch or uncrouch or sprint, because your proposed control system is inadequate.
#25EoinPosted 3/26/2013 8:16:14 AM(edited)
elheber posted...
I assumed you thought throwing was a gesture when you called it imprecise, when it's in fact more precise than the standard controls.

I didn't say it was going to be imprecise, I said it would be slow or imprecise. Do it quickly (as quickly as you can press a button, which is effectively instantly) and you won't do it accurately. Do it precisely and you'll do it slowly.

elheber posted...
Complaining about not being able to see past your hand is a complaint about touch controls in general, such as those in Sribblenauts: U. If you have a problem with them as a whole, I'm not going to try to change your mind. That's beyond the scope of this thread.

To me this looks like you're saying that your control scheme has such as huge problem that you can't imagine a solution to it....yet you're refusing to see it as any kind of hindrance - just a hand-waving "out of scope".

Also, it's not a complaint about touch controls in general. It's a complaint about touch controls specifically where the controls are arbitrarily placed on the screen (as would be the case with objects and enemies) and where constant movement of the hand was necessary. Not many games fall into that category. Deux Ex, played on a touchscreen, very much would.

elheber posted...
You can cancel the zoom and shot by releasing the left shoulder button. You don't shoot without that button held down, after all. If you really want the ADS that much, holding the stylus down brings up the weapon (and zoom) for all semi-automatic weapons, and releasing fires. Once again, releasing L cancels both. Unscoped, hipfire shots are just taps. For almanac weapons, the first bullet lands where your stylus did.

Oh lord.
#26elheber(Topic Creator)Posted 3/26/2013 1:40:19 PM
I don't know if you realize how oddly specific a scenario you had to come up with to find a fault with having both sprint/crouch on the same button. "I want to take that cover over there while exposing myself quickly but not too quickly." The new, more robust touch-enabled cover system would make that an unnecessary worry. You'd just tap on that cover point and your player would roll to it.

Since the beginning you've had me on the defensive, explaining why the weaknesses aren't anywhere as bad as you make them sound. I've barely touched on all the strengths the stylus-enabled mode would grant.

Stylus control would allow the player to engage multiple on-screen enemies in quick succession with pinpoint accuracy. It would allow the cover system to expand beyond only two choices of switching cover. The normal button system is incapable of telling which place you want to take cover behind at a distance, yet Adam is clearly capable of traveling long distances discreetly between cover, literally rolling several meters to cover. Touch control is capable of this, so the range at which you are able to snap is significantly extended. You no longer need to take a bit of extra time to line up your aim to every single thing you wish to interact with. It might not have been an issue for PCs, but the game's crosshair-based interaction (as opposed to proximity-based interaction) is a nuisance for dual analog control.
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"A closet intellectual, he acts dumb to impress women."
| 3DS: Ulysses | PSN: Riot_Guy |
#27SlimeSwayzePosted 3/26/2013 2:10:38 PM
TC, we all understand that you are really into this control scheme. The fact that you made the exact same topic for RE: Revelations (which luckily no one responded to) is proof enough that you're absolutely bonkers over stylus controls. But no matter how much you keep trying to explain yourself, everyone else already recognizes how terrible it would be to play the game this way. Not only would it completely muddle the gameplay and break the immersion, but you would be staring at the Gamepad the entire time, which basically negates the supposed benefit of having two screens, since your TV is essentially useless as you frantically tap all over the Gamepad screen like a mad man.

Stylus controls are nice for cute little mini-games and horrible tablet-style casual nonsense. It's not worth the devs spending the time and effort to even make this optional on the Wii U, because it's just a horrible way to control a game.
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#28elheber(Topic Creator)Posted 3/26/2013 3:23:59 PM
You see, I disagree that stylus control is only for casual games. I see it as a tool that hasn't been fully taken advantage of yet. It's a shame the other thread didn't take off, since stylus control makes most sense for RE. It's already got very few inputs to start with. It could be to RE:R what Wii Edition was to RE4.

I blame the discrepancy between your negativity and my positivity over these controls on how hard it is to visualize them in gameplay, since it's unlike anything before.

I also disagree with the notion you seem to have that Wii U games must use the TV.
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"A closet intellectual, he acts dumb to impress women."
| 3DS: Ulysses | PSN: Riot_Guy |
#29EoinPosted 3/27/2013 3:24:28 AM(edited)
elheber posted...
I don't know if you realize how oddly specific a scenario you had to come up with to find a fault with having both sprint/crouch on the same button.

I can come up with more if you like, but how many scenarios do you think I need to come up with to demonstrate that having non-exclusive controls on the same button that are activated in mutually exclusive situations is a bad idea?

elheber posted...
Since the beginning you've had me on the defensive, explaining why the weaknesses aren't anywhere as bad as you make them sound.

Perhaps you should wonder why you haven't succeeded. Do you think I have an ideological problem with touchscreen controls? Unlike some others - including some in this topic - I have no problem whatsoever with them. If you could describe a touchscreen control scheme that would actually work well, I wouldn't be picking issues with it. However, to be perfectly frank, you can't.

elheber posted...
Stylus control would allow the player to engage multiple on-screen enemies in quick succession with pinpoint accuracy.

No it wouldn't. A pixel on the Wii U GamePad is 0.16mm x 0.16mm (approximately). A stylus doesn't have that level of precision, and even if it did, a human hand holding a stylus doesn't (on any kind of consistent basis).

elheber posted...
It would allow the cover system to expand beyond only two choices of switching cover. The normal button system is incapable of telling which place you want to take cover behind at a distance, yet Adam is clearly capable of traveling long distances discreetly between cover, literally rolling several meters to cover. Touch control is capable of this, so the range at which you are able to snap is significantly extended.

As I mentioned already, the cover system is limited by the engine (or else by design) rather than the controls. What you're doing now isn't rethinking an inadequate control system to actually suit the game, you're redesigning the game so that your control system has an artificial advantage.

elheber posted...
You no longer need to take a bit of extra time to line up your aim to every single thing you wish to interact with.

Correction: you are no longer able to take a bit of extra time to line up your aim.