Most developers have been shoddy, that's why any kind of "risk" for them is...

#11nonexistingheroPosted 7/9/2013 7:59:26 AM
KaoticEnigma posted...
And this is where indies come in.

The thing is that you need massive teams and massive money for modern AAA games, and those sell consoles.

The smaller games don't sell many copies, and with how much a publisher takes, there wouldn't be anything left for the studio, and it'll close. Happens all the time with mid-size studios for all publishers and platforms.

But indie devs can make smaller games with smaller teams. And we have tools to self publish now too. This is why you're seeing a resurgence in smaller indie and arcade style games. They're much faster to make, much less expensive, and one dude can pull it off on his own (although I don't recommend that).

Indies can take risks, major studios can't/won't.


Problem is that we're missing the games in-between. Those with moderate production values and moderately sized dev teams. You know, devs that can create the Brave Fencer Musashi's, Vagrant Story's, Alundra's, etc of this time.
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#12spealfan444Posted 7/9/2013 8:01:40 AM
DarkAdonis123 posted...
The industry as a whole is extremely unstable today. Making quality software doesn't guarantee strong sales. And making a new and unique experience doesn't either. Catherine is a good example of this. A very polished game that was both fun and unique, yet it sold 400k across 2 systems.

People cry for something new, but then when something new comes along, they ignore it and buy more sequels instead.


And isn't Catherine Atlus' best selling game? Kinda pathetic IMO.
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#13lizard81288Posted 7/9/2013 8:08:54 AM
#10 | Kiro_nami | Posted 7/9/2013 11:57:07 AM | message detail | quote
Developers don't want to take risks because the Wii U doesn't have the install base. The Wii U doesn't have an install base because developers don't want to bring their games.

It's a catch-22.
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This. I would assume this will get better as time goes on. The install base for the ps360 is quite large. I'm sure many devs/pubs will change their tune when they HAVE to make games for the ps4 and One. I have heard, on gossip sites, IE N4G, that the One is hard to make multiplat games for, and it takes more time to do so. Point being, i'm sure more 3rd party games will come to the Wiiu, when they have too. So within a few years when pubs/devs HAVE to make ps4 Xbone and Wiiu games. Why spend the money now, when you don't have too.
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#14potatodoodPosted 7/9/2013 8:24:28 AM
DarkAdonis123 posted...
The industry as a whole is extremely unstable today. Making quality software doesn't guarantee strong sales. And making a new and unique experience doesn't either. Catherine is a good example of this. A very polished game that was both fun and unique, yet it sold 400k across 2 systems.

People cry for something new, but then when something new comes along, they ignore it and buy more sequels instead.


Catherine is a bad example. Atlus tends to have very smart investors and bigwigs. Their games usually always sell enough to make them successful and for them to always make a profit. They have a very loyal fanbase that will buy whatever they put out. The sales usually always exceed their safe projections.

In terms of total sales, yes it wasn't a million seller, but not many if any of their games are. But it did surpass internal projections and most likely made them a tidy profit. There's no doubt Atlus considers it a runaway success for them.
#15AiddonPosted 7/9/2013 8:28:03 AM
thing is, most devs are blissfully unaware of their titles being run-of-the-mill. These designers always like to think they're making a masterpiece and thus tend to convince producers that THEIR vision is worth millions and a 600 man team. And of course they proceed to spend more money than they needed to and get angry at people for not believing them to be a genius. It's an ego thing and most obvious with Western devs who have no sense of restraint and lack lateral thinking.
#16SyCo_VeNoMPosted 7/9/2013 8:45:29 AM
DarkAdonis123 posted...
The industry as a whole is extremely unstable today. Making quality software doesn't guarantee strong sales. And making a new and unique experience doesn't either. Catherine is a good example of this. A very polished game that was both fun and unique, yet it sold 400k across 2 systems.

People cry for something new, but then when something new comes along, they ignore it and buy more sequels instead.


Woulda bought Catherine if it was on the Wii ;)
#17nonexistingheroPosted 7/9/2013 8:49:04 AM
Aiddon posted...
thing is, most devs are blissfully unaware of their titles being run-of-the-mill. These designers always like to think they're making a masterpiece and thus tend to convince producers that THEIR vision is worth millions and a 600 man team. And of course they proceed to spend more money than they needed to and get angry at people for not believing them to be a genius. It's an ego thing and most obvious with Western devs who have no sense of restraint and lack lateral thinking.


Japan is no different, Square-Enix and Capcom are the prime examples of publishers/developers who do exactly the same.
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#18SyCo_VeNoMPosted 7/9/2013 8:49:05 AM
DarkAdonis123 posted...
One of the largest problems is graphics are prioritized over gameplay. Making the games pretty is where the bulk of the time and money goes. Just make the darn thing fun. People will buy it. Minecraft is NOT a runaway success because it has amazing graphics.

Which is why the same ugly engine has been used for COD for a decade now. It may be ugly as sin but it's readily available and gets the job done.


Actually on the 4th when I was by my brother I noticed my older nephew playing CoD had almost 0 emotions on his face, and looked more like he was aggravated playing that game, and my younger nephew playing minecraft was laughing his ass off(almost fell out of the chair at one point) he was having so much fun.
#19DarkAdonis123Posted 7/9/2013 8:55:14 AM
SyCo_VeNoM posted...
DarkAdonis123 posted...
One of the largest problems is graphics are prioritized over gameplay. Making the games pretty is where the bulk of the time and money goes. Just make the darn thing fun. People will buy it. Minecraft is NOT a runaway success because it has amazing graphics.

Which is why the same ugly engine has been used for COD for a decade now. It may be ugly as sin but it's readily available and gets the job done.


Actually on the 4th when I was by my brother I noticed my older nephew playing CoD had almost 0 emotions on his face, and looked more like he was aggravated playing that game, and my younger nephew playing minecraft was laughing his ass off(almost fell out of the chair at one point) he was having so much fun.


That's my point. Mindcraft is successful because its fun. Graphics were clearly not the priority.
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#20XechsPosted 7/9/2013 9:56:08 AM
Yeah Devs really need to budget their game better something is wrong when you make $40 mil (dead space 3) and $65 mil (crysis 3) games and required to sell 4 million + units. You also have to factor in that devs hiring more people so projects finish faster and maintain quality is also a reason costs are rising. Take ubi soft when they were making assasin creed 2 they paid out 8 million a year just on employee wages, with start of assasin creed 3 and specifically 4 they are paying out 400 people for $20 million a year just on employee wages not including marketing or other costs, so a year half development the game is already $30+ mil on wages alone.

People need to go back to the 50-100 man teams of 2-3 year development cycles. Retro studios and a lot of other nintendo studios only have 70-110 employees working over stretch of time and their quality shows with some of the highest rated games of all time (Also miyamoto likes to keep 20 core members overseeing all EAD 3 projects for better communication and quality control, something great about smaller teams). Also you don't have to AAA budget maintain sales 4A with a measly $4-8 mil made a graphical power house in metro last lights and a great shooter to boot with great atmospheric narrative. Platinum and epic games are know for extreme optimization and put out great games for $10 million. Atlus is one of the 14 biggest game companies and all they do is publish smaller $1-6 million games but more profitable games. I think more companies especially newer ips should have this approach. When you have the biggest game companies that spend $1-4 billion and only making $60-67 million profit and you have companies like capcom and NCsoft that spend $700 million and produce just as much or more profit (NCsoft f2p model has skyrocketed sales, if you make fun quality game with lots of updates people don't mind spending money if they like it) something is off.

I guess the biggest problem is talent and time management. you have indie games like fez that cost almost a million bucks and main studios making small games like journey for $4 million and then you have people like platinum, retro, epic games, 4A and the graphic intense more smaller PC gaming devs push amazing stuff for relatively cheap $5-15 mill. Even uncharted trilogy was like $20 million each only reason 3 blew up past $30 mil was because the $15 mil marketing. Also nintendo has gone on to say that they spend double their production budget on marketing. So more games should focus on quality game first then trying selling the game to you only through advertisements or graphics.
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