My biggest gripe about Tropical Freeze...

#1NickTheBlitzPosted 8/1/2014 12:14:29 AM(edited)
... is how it suffers from Sonic 4 Syndrome. That is to say, nearly two-decade-old games on vastly inferior hardware somehow manages to have superior controls and physics compared to a sequel made in 2013.

First off. I can't hold the jump the button to jump higher after stomping an enemy? Why do I have to press the jump button a second time to do this? Literally no platformer does this; what sense does that make at all? Every platformer since the original SMB has made it so that you bounce higher while holding the jump button, and at this point it's safe to say that that is practically instinctive to gamers. Pressing the button again, every time I stomp an enemy, is both tedious and counter-intuitive. It adds nothing to the gameplay--it only detracts. It only serves as an unnecessary hindrance to the player.

Second, analog and d-pad mode. Why are these even options? Why do they change the control scheme depending on which one you pick? Would it truly have been so difficult to make it so B jumps, Y attacks/runs, and both the analog stick and the d-pad is for moving? The fact that the two are separated and can't be used in tandem makes absolutely no sense. D-pad is most necessary on normal 2D planes for precision jumping, where analog is best for swimming. If I'm playing the swimming levels and think, "jee, it's too bad I can't use this controller function that the game was readily designed to use," then you've failed tremendously as a game developer.

Speaking of swimming. Oxygen. Why? To add realism? This is a game about apes dressed up in human clothes, fighting penguins who wield frozen fish as ammo for crossbows--realism shouldn't even be one-fifth of an issue. "B-b-but Nick, what about difficulty?" And what of it? DKC1-3 had water levels with no oxygen meter, and they were plenty difficult. Same with every Mario platformer. Why was this needed here? Honestly, I can only say to inflate pseudo-difficulty; a mediocre designed level is suddenly harder when you're limited in how far and for how long you can maneuver through it. And that is no compliment to anyone who worked on this game.

And finally: the buttons. In DKC, B jumped, and Y ran, attacked, and grabbed. The DKC games were masterpieces that were easy to pick up and play, but challenged you thereafter. In Tropical Freeze, on d-pad mode (ugggh), B jumps. Y runs, and grabs things. ZL attacks. Why was that third button necessary? What did that add to the gameplay that leaving the Y button to delegate all those duties wouldn't have? It doesn't. In fact, it makes things worse. Here's a scenario: you know those things you can pull out of the ground? Well naturally, you'd think you'd use the Y button--since, you know, it's both the closest button to your right thumb and is also used to grab objects. Grabbing, your brain subconsciously tells you, requires muscle movement that is akin to pulling. Therefore, your immediate reaction is to press Y, since pulling is like grabbing. But it's not the Y button. No, that would make too much sense. Instead, you have to use the cartwheel button to pull objects out of the ground. Speaking as a seasoned gamer, that is nothing short of counter intuitive.

TL;DR: I don't get why Retro Studios receives so much praise, when they couldn't even replicate the mechanics of a SNES game. This is absolutely mind-boggling. This game had so much potential, but I feel like it was programmed by a bunch of amateurs that merely saw gameplay videos of DKC as opposed to playing it themselves.
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#2Granadico_Posted 8/1/2014 12:23:26 AM
1. Don't really agree with, thought it was just something i had to learn and needed more skill for.
2. Agree with. Would rather play 2D platformers with d-pad, but the button arrangement sucked.
3. Only died like once or twice due to lack of oxygen. Air bubbles are everywhere. Not a big deal for me
4. People made the opposite complaint for 3DW, where the run button did everything. Can't please everyone :\ I thought it was fine
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#3noutBrPosted 8/1/2014 12:40:54 AM
NickTheBlitz posted...
First off. I can't hold the jump the button to jump higher after stomping an enemy?

Just because it's different doesn't make it bad, Retro didn't copy/paste the original trilogy and if you expected the same games you should have done some research. Returns for the Wii was released quite some time ago and Tropical Freeze is a direct sequel to Returns. It's not tedious to press jump at the right time for a nice "bop" though, it took some getting used to but after having played Returns I had no trouble at all with levels like "Bopopolis"in TF for instance.
Second, analog and d-pad mode. Why are these even options?

On this I agree, I don't understand why they couldn't make it work in tandem. But I personally liked analog controls for the whole game more so it didn't detract from the experience for me.
Speaking of swimming. Oxygen. Why? To add realism?

I was sceptical at first but Retro did a great job implementing this feature. It really fits with the game design if you think about it. Everywhere the levels push you forward with crumbling rocks, flesh eating bugs, mine carts, rocket barrels etc. The water levels keep this same pace up with the air meter. Mario 64, B-K and Mario Galaxy are praised a lot and they have air meters too, the only reason you hate on it in TF is because the original trilogy didn't have it.
And finally: the buttons. In DKC, B jumped, and Y ran, attacked, and grabbed.

Again, you keep complaining that this game isn't exactly the same as the original trilogy. The fact that it's different doesn't make it bad. The game works different and has very different mechanics. A lot of these changes made more sense in Returns on Wii because of the Wiimote+Nunchuk control scheme. Retro caried over the same physics and mechanics but gave us more traditional controls in TF so I understand the frustration for newcomers to Retro's take on DKC.
TL;DR: I don't get why Retro Studios receives so much praise, when they couldn't even replicate the mechanics of a SNES game.

Simple, DKC:R and DKC:TF are great games and deserve every little bit of praise they get. Their mission was not to replicate the SNES games but to reinvent DKC.

I must admit though that DKC:R wasn't love at first sight for me, I hated how much different it was from one of my favourite game series of all time (obivously DKC on SNES). When I got a free download code for DKC:R on 3DS I gave it another try and ended up appreciating it much more. I then proceeded to replay the Wii game and loved it even more despite of the motion controls which I hated before (still a bad decision but it works fine).

TL:DR: It's different from DKC on SNES and you simply have to let go of your biased feelings towards it. Don't play it like the SNES games, learn to play the new games and enjoy them for what they are, barrels of fun!
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#4ps4ponyreturnsPosted 8/1/2014 12:41:40 AM
NickTheBlitz posted...
... is how it suffers from Sonic 4 Syndrome. That is to say, nearly two-decade-old games on vastly inferior hardware somehow manages to have superior controls and physics compared to a sequel made in 2013.

First off. I can't hold the jump the button to jump higher after stomping an enemy? Why do I have to press the jump button a second time to do this? Literally no platformer does this; what sense does that make at all? Every platformer since the original SMB has made it so that you bounce higher while holding the jump button, and at this point it's safe to say that that is practically instinctive to gamers. Pressing the button again, every time I stomp an enemy, is both tedious and counter-intuitive. It adds nothing to the gameplay--it only detracts. It only serves as an unnecessary hindrance to the player.

Second, analog and d-pad mode. Why are these even options? Why do they change the control scheme depending on which one you pick? Would it truly have been so difficult to make it so B jumps, Y attacks/runs, and both the analog stick and the d-pad is for moving? The fact that the two are separated and can't be used in tandem makes absolutely no sense. D-pad is most necessary on normal 2D planes for precision jumping, where analog is best for swimming. If I'm playing the swimming levels and think, "jee, it's too bad I can't use this controller function that the game was readily designed to use," then you've failed tremendously as a game developer.

Speaking of swimming. Oxygen. Why? To add realism? This is a game about apes dressed up in human clothes, fighting penguins who wield frozen fish as ammo for crossbows--realism shouldn't even be one-fifth of an issue. "B-b-but Nick, what about difficulty?" And what of it? DKC1-3 had water levels with no oxygen meter, and they were plenty difficult. Same with every Mario platformer. Why was this needed here? Honestly, I can only say to inflate pseudo-difficulty; a mediocre designed level is suddenly harder when you're limited in how far and for how long you can maneuver through it. And that is no compliment to anyone who worked on this game.

And finally: the buttons. In DKC, B jumped, and Y ran, attacked, and grabbed. The DKC games were masterpieces that were easy to pick up and play, but challenged you thereafter. In Tropical Freeze, on d-pad mode (ugggh), B jumps. Y runs, and grabs things. ZL attacks. Why was that third button necessary? What did that add to the gameplay that leaving the Y button to delegate all those duties wouldn't have? It doesn't. In fact, it makes things worse. Here's a scenario: you know those things you can pull out of the ground? Well naturally, you'd think you'd use the Y button--since, you know, it's both the closest button to your right thumb and is also used to grab objects. Grabbing, your brain subconsciously tells you, requires muscle movement that is akin to pulling. Therefore, your immediate reaction is to press Y, since pulling is like grabbing. But it's not the Y button. No, that would make too much sense. Instead, you have to use the cartwheel button to pull objects out of the ground. Speaking as a seasoned gamer, that is nothing short of counter intuitive.

TL;DR: I don't get why Retro Studios receives so much praise, when they couldn't even replicate the mechanics of a SNES game. This is absolutely mind-boggling. This game had so much potential, but I feel like it was programmed by a bunch of amateurs that merely saw gameplay videos of DKC as opposed to playing it themselves.


You can repress the jump button and hold it at any point.
#5WickedSickJoshPosted 8/1/2014 12:49:49 AM
The original trilogy didn't need to be replicated but instead reinvented. The original DKC game haven't aged that well and the new DKC do a fantastic job of bringing the series to this new generation.

My only gripe with the "Returns" series is that there's TOO MUCH stuff to collect in levels. It really slows down the pace of the game when you're tempted to peek under every tree and rock for KONG letters or puzzle pieces.
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#6AvirosbPosted 8/1/2014 12:51:25 AM
noutBr posted...
Everywhere the levels push you forward with crumbling rocks, flesh eating bugs, mine carts, rocket barrels etc.
This may be MY main gripe with Tropical Freeze. Too many levels do this.
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Console wars are like pissing contests. So yeah.
#7Snow-DustPosted 8/1/2014 12:59:16 AM
I cant really take you seriously even though too long and didnt read most of it. Your complaint sounds like you cant accept changes or those little changes made the game too hard for you. I had completely no problem pressing the buttons again for hopping on enemies to jump higher
#8waywardSaviorPosted 8/1/2014 12:59:36 AM
Even your tl;dr was tl;dr. Learn to summarize!
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#9AvirosbPosted 8/1/2014 2:01:39 AM
waywardSavior posted...
Even your tl;dr was tl;dr. Learn to summarize!
Solution: Read only the first line. Skip the rest.
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Console wars are like pissing contests. So yeah.
#10manmousePosted 8/1/2014 2:29:49 AM
1.) firstly for me DKCTF was much tighter and felt more responsive and reactive than the SNES games by far.
also, as for holding the jump button vs pressing it again, i picked it up instinctively, because it makes sense. this is a bouncy, rhythmic game. using Mario's more sleek controls won't help that, you want something to emphasize a rhythmic pace. if you have coordination it's second nature. bouncing on an enemy? well, you'll bounce higher off him if you deliberately jump again when you land on him instead of passively bouncing off.

2.) i agree, that was weird. they should have analog and d-pad both on at all times, with one unified scheme for all the other buttons and a customization option if you wanna branch off.

3.) oxygen while swimming makes sense. plus the levels are designed around it, it makes you exploration mean something when you have to learn to swim the swiftest to make the best use of your time. Ecco and Sonic are the same, maybe it's because i grew up with Sega Genesis so i am more forgiving of oxygen in water levels.

4.) meh, never was an issue for me. i play on analog mode, the controls are a lot better and made sense from the moment i started. run is auto and the other buttons are more logical and less spread out.
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