How is Sarah Palmer commander of all Spartans??

#61CynicalZealotPosted 11/28/2012 6:56:52 PM
The_Madness posted...
insults Halsey who the original Spartan-II's consider their mom basically and hold in high esteem

You mean the war criminal who kidnapped and brainwashed children, who left some of them irreparably crippled either physically, mentally, or both, and who tormented parents by giving them clones of their children that she KNEW would sicken and die in a few years anyway? The one who spent most of the war essentially playing God and doing any damned thing she wanted and breaking countless rules (and laws) because she knew she was essentially irreplaceable and could get away with it? That Halsey?

You may not agree with how Palmer feels, but that doesn't even remotely mean that she isn't entirely justified for feeling the way she does about Halsey. Halsey basically IS a monster, and a HELL of a lot of civilians in the Halo universe would absolutely despise her for what she did if it became common knowledge, regardless of the fact that her work accidentally help saved the human race from an alien menace.

Regardless of whether or not you believe the ends justify the means, Halsey has a hell of a lot of blood on her hands. And even she acknowledges from time to time that most of the things she's done are terrible. She just assuages the guilt by convincing herself that they were also necessary.



The_Madness posted...
If any Spartans or Marines saw Chief on the field or Sarah Palmer, who would they take orders from?

Most Spartans respect chain-of-command, so they'd follow Palmer unless she was clearly so out-of-control that they feel she should justifiably be relieved of command (and at no point does her behavior in-game ever justify that judgement, regardless of how you feel about her).

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"This calls for a particularly subtle blend of psychology and extreme violence."
--- Vyvyan, The Young Ones
#62CynicalZealotPosted 11/28/2012 6:57:08 PM
WingZero0782 posted...
ElderPredator12 posted...
From: WingZero0782 | #043
I hope she doesn't bark orders at Chief in Halo 5, he out ranks that ***** and he's superior to all of the SIII & IV's, Lasky & Halsey should only be the ones to give him orders.

He doesn't actually. The rank of Master Chief is really not that high.

He's a Spartan II and a war hero, his rank shouldn't mean anything and it's basically just a name.

It's his rank, regardless. Worse, he's enlisted and she's an officer. Not only does she outrank him, she outranks him HARD.

Unless the UNSC basically breaks convention and gives him a MASSIVE promotion that runs counter to all known rules and regulations between Halo 4 and Halo 5, or gives him some sort of ONI-esque side promotion that takes him out of the line of military command entirely and makes him a special field operative that only answers to the highest members of command, she will almost certainly outrank him for the rest of both of their natural lives.

And from a meta-standpoint, he's never getting promoted, because then he'd stop being the Master Chief.



Silent Raven posted...
I wonder if Spartans are now a separate 'branch' of the military?

They are - it's established in the game. It's part of why Spartans are listed separately from Navy and Marines in Land Grab (Spartan Ops Episode 1, Chapter 1).

Technically, the original Spartan-IIs were an ONI special project that was handled in conjunction with the Navy, meaning Spartans were considered to be Navy (which comes up multiple times in the books, is reflected in their ranks, etc). The Spartan-IIIs were run the same way.

The Spartan-IVs (now including both Spartan-IIs and Spartan-IIIs who are still alive and who were folded into the program) have been separated out and given their own branch of the military, which is openly known as the Spartan branch. They basically operate outside of existing Naval (and Marine) command structures, and are essentially the elite Special Ops team of the UNSC.

Which is also why Palmer tends to have disdain for non-Spartan troops in-game - they're essentially playing up the idea of cross-branch rivalry.



Incidentally, this is also about the ONLY way that Chief will have any real autonomy from Palmer as a commander in future games - namely, if he remains in (and retains) his Naval rank outside of the Spartan branch.

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"This calls for a particularly subtle blend of psychology and extreme violence."
--- Vyvyan, The Young Ones
#63cobaltlotusPosted 11/28/2012 7:04:22 PM
You mean the war criminal who kidnapped and brainwashed children, who left some of them irreparably crippled either physically, mentally, or both, and who tormented parents by giving them clones of their children that she KNEW would sicken and die in a few years anyway? The one who spent most of the war essentially playing God and doing any damned thing she wanted and breaking countless rules (and laws) because she knew she was essentially irreplaceable and could get away with it? That Halsey?


People who bring this up are just being semantic, rofl.

It was a project funded by and operated by ONI in conjunction with other parts of the military as a super-secret project to develop super-soldiers to combat insurgents, and likewise with their appearance, the Covenant, though being anti-alien wasn't the original intent. If Halsey wasn't the mad scientist she is, then the human race wouldn't have survived against the Covenant. Derp.

Besides, as much as you hate her, she knows all of her Spartans by name and this reflects her perspective of them as people and maybe even family. This is also reflected in her AI, Cortana, as she sees MC as a human being, and not a simple military machine in an interstellar war.

Halsey doing all of those things - which, despite how much you whine about her satanic actions - saved the human race from total annihilation by the Covenant. It does justify the means to an end, but the sacrifice of several hundred children to preserve billions of humans in the galaxy seemed to pay off and make sense in the end.

herp derp complain about Halsey herp derp without Halsey there wouldn't be a Halo franchise herp derp.
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#64CynicalZealotPosted 11/28/2012 7:55:33 PM
cobaltlotus posted...
People who bring this up are just being semantic, rofl.

So the definition of "semantic" is "saying things that are true" now?

(I do not think that word means what you think it means!)



cobaltlotus posted...
It was a project funded by and operated by ONI in conjunction with other parts of the military as a super-secret project to develop super-soldiers to combat insurgents, and likewise with their appearance, the Covenant, though being anti-alien wasn't the original intent.

Yes. Does the fact that Rudolf Mengele worked for the Nazis mean that they shoulder 100% of the blame for his actions, while he remains completely blameless because people higher up the chain of command signed off on his work?



cobaltlotus posted...
If Halsey wasn't the mad scientist she is, then the human race wouldn't have survived against the Covenant. Derp.

Again, you, like many people, are confusing "ends justify the means" with "get out of jail free card".

It is entirely possible to freely admit that her actions saved the human race while simultaneously believing that the actions themselves were monstrous and that she should be punished for them. Especially after the fact, when the threat is no longer so severe and she is no longer quite so indispensable.

It is even possible to feel like the successful outcome BASED on her actions actually justifies a LEGAL pardon for her actions, while still believing that she is a horrible person deserving of nothing but disgust. It is entirely possible to say that what she did was pragmatically correct, but morally reprehensible.

(Even SHE will tend to admit the latter, and has implied as much at times. It's even suggested that the sole reason she attempted to kidnap Kelly and save the Spartan-IIIs was simply to assuage her own guilt at being responsible for the Spartan-IIs in the first place.)

Palmer neither likes her nor trusts her. A position entirely justified by Halsey's reputation in the Halo universe (which includes STEALING MILITARY ASSETS!), especially when you consider what information has been allowed to leak and what is still relatively classified. There are PLENTY of reasons to dislike Halsey - and there are almost certainly a hell of a lot of people, military and civilians both, who do within the setting.

The fact that Spartan-IIs tend to think of her like their mother is immaterial, for the same reason people in the real world don't care if child kidnap victims develop Stockholm syndrome towards their captors.

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"This calls for a particularly subtle blend of psychology and extreme violence."
--- Vyvyan, The Young Ones
#65CynicalZealotPosted 11/28/2012 8:08:55 PM
cobaltlotus posted...
Besides, as much as you hate her, she knows all of her Spartans by name and this reflects her perspective of them as people and maybe even family..

I don't actually hate her. But liking her as a character doesn't mean I have to be willfully blind to her flaws, either. Or how she would be perceived within the setting.

That being said, her knowing "her" Spartans by name isn't even remotely a family thing from her perspective. It's an expression of her own personal sense of guilt (and, to some extent, an expression of possessiveness rooted in her own ego - they ARE her master work, after all. Which is part of why she's a phenomenal b**** to the Spartan-IIIs). That's been true ever since the first edition of Fall of Reach. It's not a retcon, or a change that 343 forced into the canon for their own sinister purposes.

Halsey has NEVER been purely black and white.

The only reason we sympathize with her most of the time is because she's been portrayed from her own point-of-view, and from the point-of-view of the story's main protagonist, as being one of the "good" guys. As readers, we've been conditioned to do so via omniscient narrative perspective.

But that doesn't mean there aren't other people in the universe who perceive her as being "bad" (to whatever degree), nor does it mean they're wrong for doing so.



cobaltlotus posted...
This is also reflected in her AI, Cortana, as she sees MC as a human being, and not a simple military machine in an interstellar war.

Cortana is a complex personality for entirely different reasons. But it's worth noting that she didn't come to feel that way about John until after she knew him and worked with him for a time - prior to that, much of her interest in him was very similar to Halsey's own sense of possessiveness (so much so that it left Halsey feeling jealous when Cortana picked him).

It's also worth noting that CORTANA'S opinion of Halsey isn't always stellar, either. And that Cortana shares a number of her personality flaws as well.

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"This calls for a particularly subtle blend of psychology and extreme violence."
--- Vyvyan, The Young Ones
#66CynicalZealotPosted 11/28/2012 8:13:02 PM
cobaltlotus posted...
It does justify the means to an end, but the sacrifice of several hundred children to preserve billions of humans in the galaxy seemed to pay off and make sense in the end.

Except, to be fair, that wasn't the bargain being made when she made it. Because absolutely no one saw the Covenant coming.

The decision she made was to destroy those lives (and make no mistake, it wasn't just the children chosen whose lives she destroyed - their families suffered as well) in exchange for protecting the authority of the United Earth Government.

That's it.

The only real reason the insurrection became violent at all was because the UEG refused to allow the outer colonies to govern themselves. A repressive government refused to acknowledge peaceful protests or political opposition, responding with abuse and arrests. By the time violence broke out, the Insurrection had a very strong case for holding the moral high ground. While popular support for the cause had arguably dried up by the time the Spartan-II project was authorized (and the Insurrectionist methods had grown much closer to outright terrorism), the initial seeds of the revolt weren't as black and white as you might like to believe either.

Now, ask yourself how many people would agree that the US government would be justified in kidnapping hundreds of children to brutally train them to be soldiers, solely to send them into the Middle East as covert special ops teams to hunt down and murder terrorists before they could attack the US.

Do you think most people would nod and agree that it was a price worth paying? Or do you think most people would demand that everyone in the project be arrested and strung up?

The fact that her actions coincidentally saved the human race really don't erase the reasons WHY she created them in the first place. And once the war with the Covenant comes to an end, people will be a lot more willing to look at her decisions for what they were when she made them, not for what they ultimately achieved. And demand she answer for whatever crimes she's committed.

Just like if a serial killer murders 17 people, but somehow uses their corpses to discover a cure for cancer, he's still going to be prosecuted for 17 acts of murder.



Yes, if not for Halsey, the Halo universe as we know it certainly wouldn't exist. But that doesn't mean she can't be held liable for those things IN the universe itself. Or that characters who exist in the universe and DO judge her poorly for those things are somehow wrong.



(and NONE of this gets into the question of whether or not she had any choice in the matter, or if she was programmed from birth to do these things because of the Librarian. But "ancient alien magical DNA brainwashing" probably wouldn't hold up as a defense in a court of law)

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"This calls for a particularly subtle blend of psychology and extreme violence."
--- Vyvyan, The Young Ones
#67WingZero0782Posted 11/28/2012 8:55:25 PM
Well Master Chief is basically his name, I doubt 343 will promote him just to out rank everyone except for Lasky, Spartan IV's shouldn't give orders to Chief as he's a Spartan II and is older than any of the Spartan IV's & Lasky, heck Del Rio even called him an old relic or something like that.

Besides I don't remember Palmer barking orders at him in the campaign.
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#68phillyeagles123Posted 11/28/2012 9:19:34 PM
HybridSnake posted...
343 made the Spartan 4s as close to the Halo community as they could. Hence all the "lol noob. lol science. lol authority" lines.


This is awesome. You win.
#69PoppadopPosted 11/28/2012 10:23:48 PM
CynicalZealot posted...
Now, ask yourself how many people would agree that the US government would be justified in kidnapping hundreds of children to brutally train them to be soldiers, solely to send them into the Middle East as covert special ops teams to hunt down and murder terrorists before they could attack the US.

When the terrorists break out nukes, people's perspectives tend to change. Plus, Dr. Carver, Halsey, ONI, UNSC brass, and the Assembly all believed that without the S-IIs, the Insurrection would go from terrorist attacks to all-out galactic civil war. If you thought the S-IIs were worth it to save billions from the Covenant yet not worth it to save millions from the Innies, good luck explaining that.

Which is also why Palmer tends to have disdain for non-Spartan troops in-game - they're essentially playing up the idea of cross-branch rivalry.

You know, because it's not like Marines resented Spartans as it was. Am I the only one that's getting a Deus Ex: HR vibe from this?

Palmer neither likes her nor trusts her. A position entirely justified by Halsey's reputation in the Halo universe (which includes STEALING MILITARY ASSETS!), especially when you consider what information has been allowed to leak and what is still relatively classified.

Right, "stealing military assets." The official, unofficial reason that Halsey was arrested was for "committing acts likely to aid the enemy."

Halsey sedated Kelly, stole an Innie-owned ship, and went to Onyx, an ONI-occupied planet that she knew once belonged to the Forerunners. When Halsey and Kelly arrived, the planet was under attack by Sentinels and Bloody Arrow was already declared, i.e. no one help, the battle's already lost. Halsey believed there was still a chance and convinced the planet's AI to send a distress signal. The message said that in addition to UNSC personnel, there was also recoverable Forerunner tech and that ships and Spartans should respond. Blue Team and the Battle Group Stalingrad were sent to the planet; however, the Covenant intercepted the message and sent their own forces. Blue Team linked up with Halsey, Kelly, and Onyx's survivors and fought their way to the Shield World portal within the planet. Safe inside the Shield World, a team of Huragok [or Engineers] helped Halsey and the others contact the UNSC and arrange rescue. The Shield World and its Huragok gave the UNSC a wealth of technological advances and greatly increased the formidability of the Infinity.

What about any of that was "likely to aid the enemy"?
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#703starborrisPosted 11/28/2012 11:49:53 PM
disrespect of scientists doesn't make one unfit for command.