"Well, if you've read the books..."

#121shiftylukePosted 2/21/2013 2:41:20 AM
I honestly can't believe people are defending this mistake made by 343.

If you are going to make a game that continues off of a trilogy, it is generally expected of you to explain the bigger parts of the story. Using "A lot can happen in 4 years" as a way to explain what is going on between you and the enemy is a very piss poor way to explain why you just got attacked by an Elite. Then the last thing you hear about why an entire armada of Covenant ships are attacking you is "Probably just a rogue group." and that is it.

No word of their new leader, no mention of the big rebellion against the Arbiter and the 2nd civil war of the Covenant. Just "They're a rogue group". Could it have killed 343 to have a scene where everything is explained to you?

A video game that has enough story to already have 2 more games planned as sequels should NEVER have to make you go and find a source outside of the game just so you can actually know what the hell just happened. Yes, it takes only 10 minutes, but that isn't the point TC is trying to make. A game needs to be able to tell the story and explain everything well enough so ALL players can know what is happening to a sufficient level, without having to have read the books and such.
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"Bye. I'll be here when get back, dear. I'm making questions for dinner. It's gonna be delicious.." - _Sawyer
#122esprailePosted 2/21/2013 7:20:47 AM
shiftyluke posted...
I honestly can't believe people are defending this mistake made by 343.

If you are going to make a game that continues off of a trilogy, it is generally expected of you to explain the bigger parts of the story. Using "A lot can happen in 4 years" as a way to explain what is going on between you and the enemy is a very piss poor way to explain why you just got attacked by an Elite. Then the last thing you hear about why an entire armada of Covenant ships are attacking you is "Probably just a rogue group." and that is it.

No word of their new leader, no mention of the big rebellion against the Arbiter and the 2nd civil war of the Covenant. Just "They're a rogue group". Could it have killed 343 to have a scene where everything is explained to you?

A video game that has enough story to already have 2 more games planned as sequels should NEVER have to make you go and find a source outside of the game just so you can actually know what the hell just happened. Yes, it takes only 10 minutes, but that isn't the point TC is trying to make. A game needs to be able to tell the story and explain everything well enough so ALL players can know what is happening to a sufficient level, without having to have read the books and such.


Well said
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#123PoppadopPosted 2/21/2013 1:06:31 PM
shiftyluke posted...
No word of their new leader, no mention of the big rebellion against the Arbiter and the 2nd civil war of the Covenant. Just "They're a rogue group". Could it have killed 343 to have a scene where everything is explained to you?

Except none of that stuff is truly important. Mass Effect can have exposition and Codex entries to explain what happened in its books, but it's an RPG. Halo's an FPS; people typically play the campaign once or twice and spend the rest of the game's lifetime in multiplayer.

Notice how with Bungie's games no one complained when there was no explanation of how Chief got from a Longsword with no Slipspace drive and back to Earth, how the games don't reveal the true reasons behind the Human-Covenant War, or even Chief's origin story.

A game needs to be able to tell the story and explain everything well enough so ALL players can know what is happening to a sufficient level, without having to have read the books and such.

Again, how is what we get from the game and the Terminals not sufficient? Some of the Covenant still worship Forerunners and hate humans. That's all the Kilo-Five Trilogy really boils down.

I take it that 343i knew people that didn't really care about the story would get along just fine with what's in the game, and people that did care would read the books, watch FUD, and so on.
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"Today, science fiction - tomorrow, science fact." ~ Isaac Asimov
"What's the point of living if you don't believe in anything?" ~ Me
#124shiftylukePosted 2/21/2013 1:22:30 PM
Poppadop posted...
shiftyluke posted...
No word of their new leader, no mention of the big rebellion against the Arbiter and the 2nd civil war of the Covenant. Just "They're a rogue group". Could it have killed 343 to have a scene where everything is explained to you?

Except none of that stuff is truly important. Mass Effect can have exposition and Codex entries to explain what happened in its books, but it's an RPG. Halo's an FPS; people typically play the campaign once or twice and spend the rest of the game's lifetime in multiplayer.

Notice how with Bungie's games no one complained when there was no explanation of how Chief got from a Longsword with no Slipspace drive and back to Earth, how the games don't reveal the true reasons behind the Human-Covenant War, or even Chief's origin story.

A game needs to be able to tell the story and explain everything well enough so ALL players can know what is happening to a sufficient level, without having to have read the books and such.

Again, how is what we get from the game and the Terminals not sufficient? Some of the Covenant still worship Forerunners and hate humans. That's all the Kilo-Five Trilogy really boils down.

I take it that 343i knew people that didn't really care about the story would get along just fine with what's in the game, and people that did care would read the books, watch FUD, and so on.


Actually yes, it is important. I don't know about you, but when I start a game to find that the enemy I made a truce with is out to get me again, I usually want to know why that is.

I am pretty sure that the covenant wanted to wipe out humanity because they thought they were a threat to their plans on the Great Journey. I could be wrong though. Even so, the covenant wanted to essentially wipe all forms of life from the galaxy. The humans didn't want that to happen. No back story is needed since you have a reason as to why you are fighting them. Halo 4 is not the same, as if essentially drops you back into the war-zone against the enemy you made truce with, but doesn't explain to a good enough level why you are fighting them again.

And if you read my entire post, using 2 lines of dialogue from the beginning of the game from Cortana is NOT a good enough way of explaining why your allies want you dead. And as it is already stated as well, the terminals can only be accessed outside of the game, not to mention that they are hidden from you. If a game is going to have a story like this where the established plot points from previous games are changed, the worst thing you can do is HIDE the details from you explaining why things are happening, and once you find them, make you close the game, open up waypoint and then make you find out from there.

Like I said, whether it is in the form of terminals hidden in the levels and are only accessible by a different game/app/whatever you want to call it, or in the form of a book or wiki page, forcing players to go out and read up on outside sources to find out why important things in the story are happening the way they are simply isn't acceptable. Video games should never give you homework.
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"Bye. I'll be here when get back, dear. I'm making questions for dinner. It's gonna be delicious.." - _Sawyer
#125starocean4everPosted 2/21/2013 1:43:23 PM
Poppadop posted...
^ Forward Unto Dawn is proof enough of that.

Bad Ass Chucky posted...
I read the first two Gears novels and they were AWFUL. Traviss is not a "writer". She's a fan fiction author who has somehow conned her way into legitimacy. Gears was never the best written story, but she actually made it worse.

I'm inclined to agree with this. It would explain why Traviss is an open Mandalorian fangirl that snuck a slashfic into Star Wars.

the first one is a back story about Dom and carlos, if you truly care about the story of all characters, its a very nice read. the second one talks about post-gears 1 and explains how all that crap happened. all wonderful books. you basically suggested that eric nylund is a bad writer because I, personally, didnt enjoy contact harvest.
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Xbox Live GT: Neon Genesis546
#126PoppadopPosted 2/21/2013 2:13:37 PM(edited)
shiftyluke posted...
I am pretty sure that the covenant wanted to wipe out humanity because they thought they were a threat to their plans on the Great Journey. I could be wrong though.

Yeah, you are wrong. The bulk of the Covenant fought humans because the leaders of their oppressive class-based theocracy told them to, that humans purposefully destroyed Forerunner artifacts and they're an affront to their gods. The true reason is that the Prophets realized humanity's role as Reclaimers, the Forerunners' chosen successors. If news got out, the Prophets would no longer be the leaders of the Covenant, so they opted to kill all humans.

Even so, the covenant wanted to essentially wipe all forms of life from the galaxy. The humans didn't want that to happen. No back story is needed since you have a reason as to why you are fighting them. Halo 4 is not the same, as if essentially drops you back into the war-zone against the enemy you made truce with, but doesn't explain to a good enough level why you are fighting them again.

So, when someone wants to kill everything with a nervous system in the galaxy, that needs no explanation, but when someone wants to kill you, that needs explaining?

Besides, the line about this batch of Covenant's fanaticism and bowing down to the Didact also wasn't enough to tell you, "they still worship the Forerunners"?

And as it is already stated as well, the terminals can only be accessed outside of the game, not to mention that they are hidden from you.

The first terminal is the only relevant one, and it's not exactly like finding the Holy Grail. Hell, you can see it through the ramp.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYbuAm6Vb-w#t=0m20s

Video games should never give you homework.

When video games have stories grander than most of their fans would appreciate/tolerate, they probably should give you homework.

starocean4ever posted...
the first one is a back story about Dom and carlos, if you truly care about the story of all characters, its a very nice read. the second one talks about post-gears 1 and explains how all that crap happened. all wonderful books. you basically suggested that eric nylund is a bad writer because I, personally, didnt enjoy contact harvest.

Nylund didn't write Contact Harvest. Joseph Staten did, i.e. the Bungie games' writing director and VA for most of the Grunts. Why didn't you like it, though? In Traviss's case, she has a tendency to derail stories, characters, even canon to suit her own opinions [see: gushing over Mandalorians or hating on Halsey]. That's not a personal or taste issue; readers generally don't like that.
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"Today, science fiction - tomorrow, science fact." ~ Isaac Asimov
"What's the point of living if you don't believe in anything?" ~ Me
#127esprailePosted 2/22/2013 1:53:30 AM
I have been a fan of the Halo games and followed them since CE. I am interested in the story, but not enough to go read books / wikis.

Halo 4 is the first time I felt that I had to go read external sources to understand what was going on, namely why Elites are now killing me again.

Previous posters have mentioned that other Halo games also left plot details out, this may be true. But if they did they were never significant enough for me to notice. I think the reason you are fighting your old allies is a significant plot point that should be explained in game.
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Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so.
#128KageNoSenshiPosted 2/22/2013 1:49:45 PM
Halo 2 doesn't go into detail about what Guilty Spark told the heretics to make them question the Prophets. Should Bungie have spent an hr having him narrate all that history so we could understand why the Arbiter was sent after them? Well, no, because identifying them as being branded heretics by the Prophets was an adequate explanation.

H2 also doesn't give any details about the history of contempt.between the Elites and Brutes. Nor does it explain how Johnson made it off the ring.

CE doesn't explain why the PoA ended up @ installation 04. Nor does it explain Johnson's immunity to the flood. Reach doesn't elaborate on why N6 was designated the 2nd deadliest Spartan by recapping his previous tours. Nor does it explain what happened to the guy he replaced. Hell it doesn't.even mention that there was a different batch of Spartans.

There is no reason for the game to provide the level of detail you guys are talking about.
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#129PoppadopPosted 2/23/2013 6:38:31 PM
espraile posted...
I have been a fan of the Halo games and followed them since CE. I am interested in the story, but not enough to go read books / wikis.

So you care about the story but you don't really care about the story -_-
Get off the fence; we're at war!
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"Today, science fiction - tomorrow, science fact." ~ Isaac Asimov
"What's the point of living if you don't believe in anything?" ~ Me
#130SenseOffenderPosted 2/23/2013 9:46:27 PM
the books are garbage anyway