making link a woman would betray the character

#211aLINKtothePANTSPosted 6/12/2014 6:08:13 PM
gfrequency posted...
SuperMario1998 posted...
Since when have women been treated badly in the gaming community???


...seriously?


I would say this is more about women being badly represented in games.
#212Ampharos64Posted 6/12/2014 6:09:07 PM
mistermikeymike posted...
it's sexist because there isn't a male and female version?

I just said quite clearly that Link being, and staying, male, isn't the issue, it's some gamer's attitudes.

Ick on the rest, you can't actually think that women just naturally like make-up. Men and women are not different species, we just bring up boys and girls differently.

SuperMario1998 posted...
Since when have women been treated badly in the gaming community??? Lately, it has become not even a second thought to most gamers that a good percentage of gamers are female!! I know almost as many female gamers as I do male. I'm sorry, but women are not excluded at all from the gaming community by any stretch. Also, Link is a character. If he was multiple characters, he wouldn't have the same name. Why is this so hard to understand? If Link was multiple people, there would be some indication of descendant. Beside that, it's not only over dissecting the games, but the Zelda series has no need to shake things up to make a few people a bit more comfortable that things are fair. I understand that you aren't saying that, but some people are, and I think you are misreading some people. Although the person that is saying X and Y are traits of men is being sexist, I agree there.

Um, you may not have seen it, but since when has it not been an issue? I've literally been yelled at and accused of just wanting attention for merely daring to mention I'm a women, not to mention the demands for pics, 'there are no girls on the internet', outright accusations of lying, the kitchen/sandwich jokes, the harassment women often get playing online... And just the attitudes of some gamers, even if not targeting me personally, can make the community a less pleasant place to be. I mean, when even the devs of a game (LR:FFXIII) talk about having made a female character's breasts bigger...

Good on the male gamers who are disagreeing with sexist attitudes, btw, I know most don't think like that and it really does make a difference to see them speak up and say so. : )
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#213Our_gravePosted 6/12/2014 6:09:49 PM
Ampharos64 posted...
Because surely women can't possibly show courage in wartime!


If you say so! I didn't.

Ampharos64 posted...
It is sexist to associate those traits with males.


Or maybe people just have different experiences of men and women. It doesn't have to reflect on their character.
#214gfrequencyPosted 6/12/2014 6:09:52 PM
Abugumgum posted...
Oh my god I love this thread! It is like a black light for all of the closeted racism and sexism.


For real. The "tradition" argument is a weird one too. I wonder what these people would make of The Lottery.
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#215pokemega32Posted 6/12/2014 6:12:07 PM
zonobia posted...
The whole concept of multiple Links is all fine for the die-hards of official canon, but it's something that the vast majority of casual fans (which make up the majority of paying customers), don't pay attention to, and consider Link a singular character the same way Mario or Samus is.


Are you seriously telling me that "the vast majority of casual fans" are incapable of noticing that every Zelda game starts off with Link having an entirely different point of origin and not having been a hero before?

One isn't required to be a "die-hard fan of official canon" to realize every Link is a different character.

OoT Link was raised by forest fairies and a magic tree.

WW Link lives on an island in a flooded world with his grandmother and little sister.

ALttP Link was raised by his uncle near Hyrule Castle.

TP Link lives alone in a village where he works on a goat ranch.

It's blatantly obvious that they're all different individuals.
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#216gfrequencyPosted 6/12/2014 6:14:16 PM
Ampharos64 posted...
Um, you may not have seen it, but since when has it not been an issue? I've literally been yelled at and accused of just wanting attention for merely daring to mention I'm a women, not to mention the demands for pics, 'there are no girls on the internet', outright accusations of lying, the kitchen/sandwich jokes, the harassment women often get playing online... And just the attitudes of some gamers, even if not targeting me personally, can make the community a less pleasant place to be. I mean, when even the devs of a game (LR:FFXIII) talk about having made a female character's breasts bigger...

Good on the male gamers who are disagreeing with sexist attitudes, btw, I know most don't think like that and it really does make a difference to see them speak up and say so. : )


Let's not forget about this little gem, either:

http://kotaku.com/5824084/well-thats-one-way-to-combat-misogyny-in-gaming
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#217pokemega32Posted 6/12/2014 6:16:30 PM
SuperMario1998 posted...
And about whining about equality, it's a part of this conversation, and just because you aren't doesn't mean others aren't.


No.

This conversation is about how Link supposedly can't be female for completely nonsensical and sexist reasons.

That's what everyone who supports the idea of a female Link in this thread has been arguing against.

No one in this topic has said Link should be made female. They are simply arguing that there wouldn't be a problem if a female Link were introduced.
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#218PhoenixKirbyPosted 6/12/2014 6:22:09 PM
I feel the need to interject with some minor points here.

First, directly addressing the topic, the notion that writing Link as a girl would be a betrayal of the character is tenuous at best. In another work with a more immutable protagonist it would be a valid point, but the Legend of Zelda series has always had fairly soft connections between individual installments. Link is essentially a different person in most of the stories, and as such the occasional step away from his usual defining characteristics is perfectly possible; one can argue how large of a step away from his defining features changing his gender would be, but it would hardly compromise a game or two if it happened. A female Link could still very easily be recognizable as Link, it's a simple matter of character design.

That said...

There is very little reason to do it unless the writers happen to come up with a story or plot point that they think a female protagonist would better facilitate than a male protagonist. There are certainly narratives that could benefit from that, of course, but it can hardly be said that all of them would. There really needs to be an underlying reason for a deviation from the image of such an iconic lead for it to have any meaningful impact.

Too often I see the reasoning for changes such as these be something as simple as "well, why not?" But that is never a real argument. Change for the sake of change is without merit; change is not, itself, a meaningful or worthwhile goal. Things change from story to story all the time, but in the service of some greater purpose in regards to the whole.

And as for those who advocate for this sort of change for the sake of accessibility, well, I apologize, but accessibility is rarely a good argument. Not every work of art needs to appeal to everyone; in fact, I daresay that most works of art ought to alienate someone or other, by the very nature of narrative. If you find fault in a narrative, well... go create your own work with a narrative that suits you. That's what art is about.

Now, I'll grant you that the Legend of Zelda is a fairly accessible series that is, honestly, meant to be broadly accessible. That said, I would say that this is one case where the gender of the protagonist is totally immaterial to how accessible it is. That, however, is a whole other discussion that I would rather not delve into unless I really have to.
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#219edgarmorrtisPosted 6/12/2014 6:25:01 PM
GigerSupreme posted...

i find it funny how quick everyone forgets about Samus and her games, and people automatically assume nintendo is sexist because link is a man who saves a princess.
Samus is what you guys are looking for. keep link out of a dress... he is a man, and respect that.


This. This, this, this, this, 1000 times this.
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#220SuperMario1998Posted 6/12/2014 6:27:06 PM
aLINKtothePANTS posted...

I would say this is more about women being badly represented in games.


Everyone gets upset that women are objectified in games, right? I agree. but just as bad is the blowing out of proportion of men being lustful. They go hand in hand, and I think it's something to disgusted by, but it goes both ways. I know some will respond to this by saying men are lustful in real life, but some women objectify themselves in real life too. We don't have to overplay that in games that men just can't control themselves because that is just as offensive as objectifying women. Ampharos64 posted...
mistermikeymike posted...
it's sexist because there isn't a male and female version?

I just said quite clearly that Link being, and staying, male, isn't the issue, it's some gamer's attitudes.

Ick on the rest, you can't actually think that women just naturally like make-up. Men and women are not different species, we just bring up boys and girls differently.

SuperMario1998 posted...
Since when have women been treated badly in the gaming community??? Lately, it has become not even a second thought to most gamers that a good percentage of gamers are female!! I know almost as many female gamers as I do male. I'm sorry, but women are not excluded at all from the gaming community by any stretch. Also, Link is a character. If he was multiple characters, he wouldn't have the same name. Why is this so hard to understand? If Link was multiple people, there would be some indication of descendant. Beside that, it's not only over dissecting the games, but the Zelda series has no need to shake things up to make a few people a bit more comfortable that things are fair. I understand that you aren't saying that, but some people are, and I think you are misreading some people. Although the person that is saying X and Y are traits of men is being sexist, I agree there.

Um, you may not have seen it, but since when has it not been an issue? I've literally been yelled at and accused of just wanting attention for merely daring to mention I'm a women, not to mention the demands for pics, 'there are no girls on the internet', outright accusations of lying, the kitchen/sandwich jokes, the harassment women often get playing online... And just the attitudes of some gamers, even if not targeting me personally, can make the community a less pleasant place to be. I mean, when even the devs of a game (LR:FFXIII) talk about having made a female character's breasts bigger...

Good on the male gamers who are disagreeing with sexist attitudes, btw, I know most don't think like that and it really does make a difference to see them speak up and say so. : )


I have seen this. I know it is a problem to an extent, but let's not overplay it. It's just an issue of snobs on the internet, and just because they target at your being a woman doesn't make it any different. Believe me, trolls will find a way to get under people's skin and just making fun of someone being a woman is an easy way to do it. I guess what I'm saying is, the general (general) population of gamers are accepting of the fact that woman are gamers, but trolls will be trolls and don't take that as a majority of people. I'll say again, most people aren't being sexist, and if went over to a Metroid or a Tomb Raider board and started saying that Samus/Lara Croft should be male, I would get the same negative responses (if not worse). Or do you think people want that?

And about devs, its the same I mentioned before. Men are just as negatively represented, devs just don't talk about it, but it certainly is wrong on both accounts.
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