Canonically, who would be the most powerful Nintendo character in Smash Bros.?

#131Bronze_StuffPosted 1/7/2013 12:39:14 AM
Nidhogg151 posted...
Bronze_Stuff posted...
Nidhogg151 posted...
You all keep bringing up Red's canon team. That's his preferred battle team, NOT the only Pokemon he has. In fact, through canon it's assumed he could have access to any and all Pokemon, as one of his two purposes is to fill the Pokedex, which you do by catching as many Pokemon as you cant. You don't simply stop at 6. It's never explained why he chooses his team either. It could simply be because those are the Pokemon he likes the most/feels closest too. And that's probably the actual reason considering Pokemon.

Besides, I keep seeing a lot of people bring up what other characters could legitimately have access to in their lore/canon, but don't necessarily actually have it. So if you can use that argument, why can't we?


Because Red the trainer in the game is the one you play as. Preferred team or not, the only teams Red can have are from the regions we've seen him in. We KNOW what he has been to. Red's purpose is to collect the data on the pokedex yes, but that doesn't mean that he's actually caught all of them. We played the games that Red was in. We caught what he caught. He can't catch anything outside of those games. Trading =/= anything because it doesn't even make sense in the logic of the game itself. Sort of like the Time Machine in G/S/C. The only way you can make Red make any sense is saying what he could possibly have. Not what he could have. Otherwise, you run into things that happen like Link with all of the Triforce. Yes, Link could have it, but he doesn't. Yes, Red could have Arcerus, but he doesn't... And preferred or not, that is obviously Red's strongest team. If he prefers to use them, that means he's going to let them fight more, and thus they are more experienced. Like it or not, what we see from Red in the games IS his strongest team. You might think he is weak, but that is what he uses, and it doesn't matter if he was. He's still cool.

Because it shouldn't be done. That's the whole thing. You're only supposed to say what the character could realistically use. For instance, if Cloud Strife were in this, mentioning that he could use materia is fine. Saying that he could use Barret's Ungarmax or Cid's Highwind is not. It gets really stupid when you mention things that the character isn't going to naturally have. At that point, you aren't comparing characters, you are comparing the worlds.


Red exists in Unova, where all 649 Pokemon are. Therefore Red has reasonable access to all current Pokemon. You can thank B/W2's PWT for that one. No trading involved, just the usual travel and filling the Pokedex like he normally does.


And yet... He still couldn't get ones like Mew, Arceus. As your character is the one that would be getting them. The ones that you'd want to mention are what matter. Common Pokemon are nothing special here.
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Jimbo.
#132HHDeceptionPosted 1/7/2013 12:44:30 AM
This topic is fun.

Obviously the most powerful character is ROB. He can turn the system off and everyone else stops existing.

Also, ROB never dies. Ever. In any of his games. It's impossible.
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#133Bronze_StuffPosted 1/7/2013 12:52:28 AM
Nidhogg151 posted...
CrystalKing5426 posted...
Just to debunk PT:

1: He can only have 6 Pokemon at a time, max.

2: Even the strongest lv.100 legendaries can still be taken down pretty easily in-game.

3: Any of the other contestants could just kill PT himself, leaving his party in disarray.


PS: as someone else pointed out, Samus is absurdly broken and would win this easily.


With this kind of logic, Samus can still die in a couple hits, since that's all it takes for her to die in the video games. I'm pretty sure that actual game mechanics don't apply. Otherwise, what level is Samus? Last I checked she doesn't level up in her games, therefore she's forever level 1, going up against a level 100 Pokemon. A level 1 going up against a level 100 is like a random 3rd grader going up against Odin. And the strongest level 100 Pokemon only go down easily against other level 100 Pokemon.

No, that kind of logic cannot apply in discussions like this or they just get even more dumb and pointless than they already are lol. All have to be leveled out in a more "realistic" environment backed by their lore/real life equivalents. With that said, yes PT only gets 6 Pokemon, but picking the right 6 could make or break this conversation. If chooses Dialga, he can simply stop time, not allowing enemies to attack, then use Palkia to open a rift in space, which could then send the enemies into a empty universe created by Arceus. Then he still has three Pokemon slots to spare. As for his vulnerability, he could use Pokemon to protect him, like Mewtwo to shield him with psychic power. And according to the anime, he can have all 6 Pokemon out to do this. Or if you want to keep it game only, then he could keep at least 3 out, thanks to triple battles.

PT wins just based on the sheer amount of options available to him. It really makes the whole thing unfair because we are talking about a game based on the ability to capture and control basically everything that causes the universe to function. And as for the PT and Pokemon counting as different characters, that only applies if a Pokemon is not caught. Once caught they obtain a certain kind of synergy that requires them both to perform properly. This is explained in the games. Captured Pokemon are to be thought of like weapons that happen to be living organisms that can think for themselves. Really, it would be like saying Samus' suit is it's own character, or Ike's sword is its own character.


And again, with this logic, Captain Falcon > Everyone. Agreed it's silly.

Red cannot have Dialga. Even if he did, it can be beaten, as it was defeated in Pokemon Mystery Dungeon by 2 Pokemon unevolved Pokemon. As well as the hero from Pokemon D/P/Pl can beat it. Mewtwo is the only one that he can possibly have out of the ridiculously broken ones. And "shield with psychic power" is not a move. However, protect, safeguard and light screen are. Yes, Red can have 6 Pokemon, but that's it. Saying Red can have them isn't true. No... Because the other trainers in the respective games are the ones that could, and they don't either. Generally speaking, it's presumable that none of the legendaries are actually captured in canon. Regardless, even having Arceus wouldn't be too hot against someone, so it can create a world...? Samus has been responsible for a planet's destruction before.

PT doesn't have a sheer amount of options for him. He has 6 tops. Meaning that once he's out of them, he's done. He can't switch or anything. Even worse, is that you can't compare Samus's suit as its own character, or Ike's sword. They don't move on their own, and they don't have minds of their own. The same way someone like Lucario is its own character, so would the Pokemon technically. Regardless, PT's ability is to use Pokemon, so that's a moot point.
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Jimbo.
#134Nidhogg151Posted 1/7/2013 1:15:01 AM
Bronze_Stuff posted...
And yet... He still couldn't get ones like Mew, Arceus. As your character is the one that would be getting them. The ones that you'd want to mention are what matter. Common Pokemon are nothing special here.


I don't really see why he couldn't. I caught legendaries just fine with my Red. Why couldn't he have caught the others too? I mean he has reasonable access. He got to Unova just fine, which means he could get to the other regions (Unova is the furthest and most difficult to get to region). Planes and ships exist making travel not that big of a deal. I mean, I'm not making a stretch here, this is all stuff you do in the game normally, and about 95% of the time it's not a "you're the only one who can do this" situation either. The true game canon actually leaves all the legendaries grey for that reason alone. Only a couple are claimed in canon, the rest are ment to be catchable by any trainer strong enough, which Red is.

Getting legendaries in the Pokemon universe isn't like getting the full Tri-force. Because for the most part nothing special has to happen for most or them. I'll admit there are a few that are too unlikely for Red to get, but for the most part he only has to know where to look and would be able to get them reasonably.

And even then, for arguments sake, those legendaries aren't the only thing out there that could make PT win. They are simply easy mode. Most normal Pokemon tend to have features that could still easily make them win. Like Darmanitan who's fire reaches 2500 degrees and can destroy a dump truck in one punch, according to its Pokedex entry.
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#135Nidhogg151Posted 1/7/2013 1:26:50 AM
Bronze_Stuff posted...
And again, with this logic, Captain Falcon > Everyone. Agreed it's silly.

Red cannot have Dialga. Even if he did, it can be beaten, as it was defeated in Pokemon Mystery Dungeon by 2 Pokemon unevolved Pokemon. As well as the hero from Pokemon D/P/Pl can beat it. Mewtwo is the only one that he can possibly have out of the ridiculously broken ones. And "shield with psychic power" is not a move. However, protect, safeguard and light screen are. Yes, Red can have 6 Pokemon, but that's it. Saying Red can have them isn't true. No... Because the other trainers in the respective games are the ones that could, and they don't either. Generally speaking, it's presumable that none of the legendaries are actually captured in canon. Regardless, even having Arceus wouldn't be too hot against someone, so it can create a world...? Samus has been responsible for a planet's destruction before.

PT doesn't have a sheer amount of options for him. He has 6 tops. Meaning that once he's out of them, he's done. He can't switch or anything. Even worse, is that you can't compare Samus's suit as its own character, or Ike's sword. They don't move on their own, and they don't have minds of their own. The same way someone like Lucario is its own character, so would the Pokemon technically. Regardless, PT's ability is to use Pokemon, so that's a moot point.


In canon, caught legendaries are left grey area because technically everyone is supposed to have them and none are supposed to have them. So really we could argue for days because neither of us will be right or wrong. There are only a couple legendaries claimed by actual npc's, and I don't believe I named any of them in this argument.

Also Arceus doesn't create worlds, he creates universes. He is literally the Christian's God in Pokemon form. If PT had him, lorewise he would be invincible, or very close to it.

And yes, he does have a sheer amount of options. Not on the fly, but he would still be able to prepare with nearly limitless options. And I can too compare Pokemon to Samus' suit/Ike's sword. Please reread what I said before, caught Pokemon are different than wild Pokemon. Caught Pokemon are more akin to a weapon than an animal, as they require a synergy with their trainer in order to battle. Wild Pokemon do not require that. Which is why Lucario can be it's own character and the Pokemon Red uses wouldn't be. This is actually something explained in the games.
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You can never be too rich, too good-looking, or too well armed.
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#136Milla_MaxwellPosted 1/7/2013 2:23:28 AM
Nidhogg151 posted...
ConnorTheOtter posted...
You're all blind. Link, Ike, Ness, Ganon, Kirby, blah blah blah

WRONG
Pokemon Trainer is the most powerful.

Point One: The ability to command creatures that can do the following -

Release thunderstorms that generate enough electricity to create city evacaquating conditions. (Zapdos)

Chill moisture in the air around its foe, causing it to freeze alive. (Articuno)

Transform into any one of the other 648 species of Pokémon, and use their attacks all the same. (Mew)

Take control of another living being's mind, create worldwide natural disasters, all while being a master Psychic. (Mewtwo)

Inbody volcanos, the northern winds, and lightning. (Suicune, Raikou, and Entei)

A highly intelligent psychic sea guardian that could hypothetically spawn storms lasting as long as 40 days just by flapping its wings. (Lugia)

Create flames that burn on contact, as well as being able to resurrect the dead. (Ho-Oh)

Travel through time, and also can restore plant based lifeforms back to perfect health; even in death. (Celebi)

Creator of land in the Pokémon world. (Groudon)

Creator of the seas in the Pokémon world. (Kyogre)

Fly at blinding speeds in high atmospheres to the point of becoming completely invisible. Can also lock/control weather. (Rayquaza)

Grant any fathomable wish once every thousand years. Can also crash a meteor shower into its foe [Doom Desire]. (Jirachi)

Change its appearance and stats to suit whatever situation it may be in during battle and regenerate any part of its body that it may have lost during a battle. Also is a master psychic. (Deoxys)

Ability to warp time by either speeding it up, slowing it down, or stopping it altogether. (Dialga)

Ability to warp and tear space (Palkia)

Travel through and control dimensions besides those of time and space, and covert itself into a shadows. (Giratina)

Heal psychological scars and dispel evil. (Cresselia)

Put people and Pokémon in endless nightmares only stopped if close to a lunar wing from Cresselia [See above]. (Darkrai)

Moved the continents in place. (Regigigas)

Produces infinite energy within itself and shares it with others by touching them. Also able to become invisible when desired. (Victini)

Creator of the universe. Can be any type. A literal God. (Arceus)

Point Two: Can convert any foe into a team member via Pokeball.
The tallest being know possible to be captured in a Ball is 47'07" (14.5 m) [Wailord]
So even the likes of Bowser (who is said to be immortal by many) can be captured and stored.

Point Three: Can heal Pokemon.
So, if the whole cast tackles Arceus, and does some damage, the Trainer can whip out a Max Revive, healing the Pokemon to it's maximum power as if it was never touched.

You don't need to be a Pokefan to see the raw Godness that is Pokemon Trainer.


I came here to basically say this too. Access to 649 different weapons (theoretically), a lot of which in their respective lore are more/as powerful than all of the other characters in SSB (one Pokemon actually being God).

The only others I'd put on par with the Pokemon Trainer is Star Fox and crew. You know, cause nuke from orbit.


Well his Pokemon are Strong, but what exactly stops someone like Samus or Ganondorf from just killing the Trainer (Who is just a regular Human.
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#137TheMasterTurtlePosted 1/7/2013 5:00:49 AM
Why would PT have access to every Pokemon, that doesn't make much sense and is unfair. Samus shouldn't have all her ultimate equipment. Pokemon Trainer (Red) should use his canon team (Blastoise, Charizard, Venusaur, Pikachu, Snorlax, Lapras) in which case I would vote for Samus as it would essentially be a boss rush. Although I've never really played Metroid beyond the first one.
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#138PlasmaCannonPosted 1/7/2013 6:16:41 AM
chiycheesewolf posted...
Does no one pay attention to my Samus post?



You must've missed where I said she wouldn't be able to do squat without authorization.
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#139Scorpion122178Posted 1/7/2013 6:26:29 AM
CrystalKing5426 posted...
Scorpion122178 posted...
How is Samus hurting Ganondorf? How is she even hurting Psychics? Mewtwo can throw her missiles back at her, and Ness can absorb her energy attacks to regain health.


Ganondorf's ToP doesn't grant him 100% invulnerability to everything except evil's bane weapons, just a high damage threshold that Samus would easily break past. This is also only by canon, so Mewtwo doesn't have his BS anime powers. PSI Magnet doesn't in Earthbound like it does in SSB. It's basically EB's Drain Magic attack, not a shield to absorb any and all projectiles. As for the person who said Giygas, his only attack is a moderately damaging AoE attack and he's literally defeated by the power of love.


yes and in cannon he has access to the TM Psychic, its not a BS anime power. Blowing up an island with it sure but that actual attack itself is fair game. I never played Earth Bound, but from what I hear Ness has instant KO moves. And can you provide proof that something other than evil's ban can stop Gonondorf? She shoots him with missiles he transforms into the dark beast ganon and f***s her up.
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#140Pieman0920Posted 1/7/2013 6:32:21 AM
Wouldn't Pokemon Trainer only have access to Pokemon from Gens 1-3, as he's the LG/FR trainer? :V
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