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Honestly Who Do You Think Is Gonna Get Cut. . .

#41jjacobsnd5Posted 2/5/2013 10:58:57 AM
RawstyleEevee posted...
ArmedDragoon posted...
I always laugh when people guess that Jigglypuff's going to get cut, if she were going to be cut on the grounds of relevancy it would have happened long before now. Jiggly is less expendable than your favorite characters, deal with it.

Considering Sakurai's words, I can't imagine cuts at all. I also don't imagine that many newcomers. If he's hoping to refine gameplay, then cutting characters is a silly thing to worry about.


Well Jiggly was almost cut in Brawl, she was way behind the other original 11 in the data.

The orginal 11 are the first finished characters, while Jigglypuff is in the late 30's

However I agree after she survived 3 games, she will most likely will return, but there still could be a tiny chance she could get the boot


Where is this list of data for Brawl? I've never seen such a thing but I've heard it cited on these boards all the time
#42RawstyleEeveePosted 2/5/2013 11:49:13 AM
RawstyleEevee posted...

Every Character was planned in 2005 minus Sonic & Perhaps Wolf

Wolf is the last finished character of Brawl & he took Mewtwo's last spot
Wolf could have been planned among the rest but he was dropped then very early on because he doesn't have a scrapped planned Victory theme unlike Roy & Mewtwo

It most likely went this:
Jigglypuff, Mewtwo, Toon Link & Roy were the last characters they were working on, however they saw Sonic was the most requested character for Brawl so to please the fans all development was dropped on the 4 characters to finish Sonic causing Time constraints

After that Sakurai probably couldn't finish all 4 characters & had to pick 3, he Picked Jiggly, Toon Link & instead of Picking either Mewtwo or Roy he made Wolf from scratch

Also these are the scrapped victory themes:

snd_bgm_Z09_FLUIGI
snd_bgm_Z12_FKUOPA
snd_bgm_Z13_FPEACH
snd_bgm_Z14_FZELDA
snd_bgm_Z15_FSHEIK
snd_bgm_Z19_FFALCO
snd_bgm_Z20_FGANON
snd_bgm_Z24_FZEROSAMUS
snd_bgm_Z26_FLUCAS
snd_bgm_Z27_FDIDDY
snd_bgm_Z28_FPOKETRAINER
snd_bgm_Z32_FDEDEDE
snd_bgm_Z33_FLUCARIO
snd_bgm_Z34_FIKE
snd_bgm_Z37_FPURIN
snd_bgm_Z38_FMYU2
snd_bgm_Z39_FROY
snd_bgm_Z41_FTOONLINK

Every Protagonist of a franchise were supposed to have the theme that has made it into Brawl for the whole Franchise & Meta Knight is the only 1 who's personal victory theme made it into Brawl

However as you can see no Wolf so he was made last Minute & he is in the real character order always the last first party character

Sonic & Snake are an exception to this rule because they are last in the order due they are 3rd party & kinda bonus characters, But Snake was finished before Sonic offcourse

Official character order(also the characters they finished first) (Can be seen in Subspace character select, the scrapped victory Data & Credits role
http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/7672/ssecharacterselect.png
Original 11
1. Mario
2. DK
3. Link
4. Samus
5. Yoshi
6. Kirby
7. Fox
8. Pikachu
9. Luigi
10 C. Falcon
11. Ness

Melee newcomers
12. Bowser
13. Peach
14. Zelda
15. Sheik
16. Ice climbers
17. Marth
18. Game & Watch
19. Falco
20. Ganondorf

Brawl Newcomers
21. Wario
22. Meta Knight
23. Pit
24. Zero Suit Samus
25. Olimar
26. Lucas
27. Diddy Kong
28-31. Pokemon Trainer(the pokes are also counted seperate & the next character is Dedede & he is nr. 32 so think he even had 4 victorys planned for him)
32 King Dedede
33 Lucario
34 Ike
35 R.O.B.

The Leftover Characters from previous games,planned clones & the guest characters
36 most Likely Snake
37. Jigglypuff
38. Mewtwo
39. Roy
40. most Likely Sonic
41.Toon Link

http://www.ssbwiki.com/Beta_elements

Also Sakurai once said he had to cut lots of characters from Brawl so characters 42- whatever Sakurai's original number was is were Wolf, the rest of the forbidden 7 & maybe even other unknown characters were planned & got scrapped

Melee also had a similair order

Melee was supposed to have 21(Sheik counted) Characters & Game & Watch was Character nr 21.

However they wanted that Sakurai would spice up the roster with clones so the character 22-26 were all the clones
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vh48TKldggA (set the trophees by fighter you see Melee's Character order)
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#43ToadkartPosted 2/5/2013 12:03:06 PM
Lucario and Ike are all I'm expecting to get cut.
#44jjacobsnd5Posted 2/5/2013 1:37:39 PM
Wow that was extremely informative and interesting,
Thanks! What do you mean by Forbidden 7 though?
#45DMZappPosted 2/5/2013 1:53:27 PM
1. Wolf O'Donnell. Having three of the same moveset is nonsensical, and he'd be the first to go.
2. Pokemon Trainer. Too much of a first installment can be unusual.
3. Jigglypuff. It hasn't been relevant in years, and it's not even in the show anymore.
4. Lucas. What's the point in having a character whose game never even got here, yet was spoiled in the Brawl info anyway?
5. Solid Snake. He has little to do with Nintendo, and only got in as a favor to Kojima. That favor is up.
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#46TheGoshnerPosted 2/5/2013 2:29:04 PM
The only one that I think it somewhat likely is Lucario (and I don't find it THAT likely).

I kind of want Falco to be cut for Krystal, but I'm not holding my breath.

Snake is a slight possibility, but his moveset is too unique for them to drop him just because he is third party. At the very least, they will give his moveset to someone else.
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#47Vegeta1000Posted 2/5/2013 8:55:12 PM
While I do agree Jigglypuff is in a better position, Lucario is more popular and relevant then you give him credit for considering he still holds onto a dedicated fanbase and has made some notable apparances in merchandising and the anime.

Popularity alone won't get characters in Smash as I've already mentioned. Yes, he still gets advertisement, but so do several other Non-Gen 5 or 6 Pokemon. He had the huge anime movie and was mascot of Gen 4 when SSBB was out. Now, he has none of that. I don't really think Sakurai cares too much about the anime besides the movies. Jigglypuff didn't get in SSB because of the anime.

He was featured a bit more prominently then Arcanine actually, but that's besides the point. He did make a lot more noticeable appearances for the BW2 marketing (the anime, toys, etc.), even over his supposed replacement and was pushed back into the limelight due to his availabiliity in that game, which increased his popularity even more. To me that shows he has more to him since GF still cares about him and the fans still care about him. If both still want him around then I see no good reason to remove him, especially if the 6th gen mascot undergoes the same problems Zoroark went through.

Does Sakurai still want him. Game Freak can have some influence on which Pokemon gets in, but at the end of the day Sakurai makes the final roster decisions. If he feels like Lucario is no longer worthy of a spot, then he's not returning. Imo, I don't think Lucario will return unless Pokemon gets 5 roster spots or Jigglypuff or Pokemon Trainer gets cut (which is unlikely).
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#48Ari917Posted 2/5/2013 9:30:55 PM(edited)
Vegeta1000 posted...


Popularity alone won't get characters in Smash as I've already mentioned. Yes, he still gets advertisement, but so do several other Non-Gen 5 or 6 Pokemon. He had the huge anime movie and was mascot of Gen 4 when SSBB was out. Now, he has none of that. I don't really think Sakurai cares too much about the anime besides the movies. Jigglypuff didn't get in SSB because of the anime.


Does Sakurai still want him. Game Freak can have some influence on which Pokemon gets in, but at the end of the day Sakurai makes the final roster decisions. If he feels like Lucario is no longer worthy of a spot, then he's not returning. Imo, I don't think Lucario will return unless Pokemon gets 5 roster spots or Jigglypuff or Pokemon Trainer gets cut (which is unlikely).


Sonic would like a word with you about that.

Lucario gets a lot more advertisement then the other non-5 or 6 gen pokemon, very few match him in that regard. And really, he still has a lot of that, I've checked some of the merchandising and he (along with his preevolution) still do get it, especially in the BW2 hype peroid. Also the anime serves as a good view into what's popular and what's not, Piplup was a hit in the anime so he appeared frequently (and still does from time to time), Jigglypuff was a hit with the fanbase so it had quite a few appearances (and is still around in SSB), N's supposed to be getting an arc dedicated to him, Cynthia is one of the most popular champions and made appearances after DP in the BW2 arc and so on. The anime is basically a marketing vehicle so what shows up a lot in it tends to be what's popular and by proxy, sells.

You don't know what Sakurai wants, no one does except him. All we have is some notes and lost data and make educated guesses. One of these that is the most accepted interpretation is that Mewtwo was intended to remain in the roster based on his data, which would've gave Pokemon the most roster spots. If he was willing to do that before, it's possible he'd be willing to do it in SSB4.
#49RawstyleEeveePosted 2/6/2013 5:57:08 AM
jjacobsnd5 posted...
Wow that was extremely informative and interesting,
Thanks! What do you mean by Forbidden 7 though?


The Forbidden 7 were the data of the characters they found on the Brawl disc that didn't make it in the final game

Toon Zelda
Toon Sheik
Dr. Mario
Roy
Mewtwo
PraiMai(assumed to be Plusle & Minun, however could also be random select or something)
Dixie Kong
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#50Vegeta1000Posted 2/6/2013 11:18:11 AM
Sonic would like a word with you about that.

Not really. Sonic was easily the most requested newcomer for SSBB. No newcomer in Brawl had even close to the amount of popularity or requests that Sonic had. Sonic got in for his huge popularity alone. The only potential newcomers for SSB4 that even come close to Sonic's popularity are Megaman and Pac-Man.

Lucario gets a lot more advertisement then the other non-5 or 6 gen pokemon, very few match him in that regard. And really, he still has a lot of that, I've checked some of the merchandising and he (along with his preevolution) still do get it, especially in the BW2 hype peroid. Also the anime serves as a good view into what's popular and what's not, Piplup was a hit in the anime so he appeared frequently (and still does from time to time), Jigglypuff was a hit with the fanbase so it had quite a few appearances (and is still around in SSB), N's supposed to be getting an arc dedicated to him, Cynthia is one of the most popular champions and made appearances after DP in the BW2 arc and so on. The anime is basically a marketing vehicle so what shows up a lot in it tends to be what's popular and by proxy, sells.

I don't think that Sakurai cares as much about the anime that you think he does. Jigglypuff didn't get in because of the anime. She got in because her body shape was similar to Kirby's that's why they share the same animations. Lucario only got in because he was the most relevant mascot at the time. I don't think his appearance in the anime or B2/W2 is going to help him much especially considering the limited roster spots.

You don't know what Sakurai wants, no one does except him. All we have is some notes and lost data and make educated guesses. One of these that is the most accepted interpretation is that Mewtwo was intended to remain in the roster based on his data, which would've gave Pokemon the most roster spots. If he was willing to do that before, it's possible he'd be willing to do it in SSB4.

Sakurai cares about relevance. That's why Lucario got in SSBB. There is a reason why Mewtwo was added so late in development and eventually dropped because he was no longer important enough compared to the other characters on the roster. If you had been following Sakurai's statements since this game was announced, then you would know that he doesn't want the roster size to increase much from SSBB. There's no way we're not getting a Gen 5/6 newcomer and Pokemon will probably only get 4 roster spots maybe 5 if we're lucky. Even then, Lucario has to compete with Mewtwo who has more popularity and requests. It's a reason why most think that Lucario won't be returning. The odds are against him.
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