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Color differential between Marth, Ike, and Chrom's hair...

#31ViewtifulGenePosted 2/17/2013 4:02:14 PM
Chomper4 posted...
ViewtifulGene posted...
SpunkySix posted...
Hair color isn't the argument, it's just used to drive home how similar they are in appearance. Anybody who says hair color is the main problem is delusional.


Their body types, clothing, faces, movements, mannerisms, and weapons also vary in the same ways. You're completely arbitrary. You arbitrarily ignore the differences because they aren't differences you like.


You just don't like differences, do you my friend?


On the contrary. I appreciate differences such as the differences between Ike and Marth.
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"Once again, ViewtifulGene's logic blows minds and crushes dreams." -TheGamingGolfer
"Supez teh king" -dedekong
#32ViewtifulGenePosted 2/17/2013 4:25:30 PM(edited)
Goshner2 posted...
Really, I'm confused by ViewtifulGene's logic (as obviously trolalcious as it is).

He is claiming that everything is just as similar to everything as everything else.

A blind person has no standard for what is light so, by default everything is dark.

A deaf person has no standard for what is loud so, by default everything is quiet.

If there is no standard for what is different, then by default, everything is the same.

Except, he is using this as an argument for why everything is DIFFERENT.


False. It doesn't make everything the same. It makes it all different but we are unable to quantify the differences objectively. That doesn't make everything equal. It leaves us unable to know which is more either way. Not the same thing.

If the difference cannot be quantified objectively then the difference's quantity is irrelevant to anyone who doesn't already agree with the beholder.
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"Once again, ViewtifulGene's logic blows minds and crushes dreams." -TheGamingGolfer
"Supez teh king" -dedekong
#33ViewtifulGenePosted 2/17/2013 4:10:27 PM
Ryoukai posted...
From: Goshner2 | #108
Really, I'm confused by ViewtifulGene's logic (as obviously trolalcious as it is).

He is claiming that everything is just as similar to everything as everything else.

A blind person has no standard for what is light so, by default everything is dark.

A deaf person has no standard for what is loud so, by default everything is quiet.

If there is no standard for what is different, then by default, everything is the same.

Except, he is using this as an argument for why everything is DIFFERENT.


I ignored most of the argument, but from what I can tell, he's arguing from an outsider's position. By ignoring scales of contrast, it's pretty easy to say that all differences are equal in value, so therefore Marth is as different to Chrom as Luigi is to Kirby.

You would have to quantify the differences on a scale of contrast to quantify the differences, but naturally, that is an arbitrary value created by humans and can differ based on who is doing the quantifying.

Why should we, then, put any value in people's subjective quantifications of differences? There should only be differences and similarities. But if everything is slightly different from another thing, we can no longer have similarities.

The problem now is, 'similar' becomes devalued, so that, no matter what, everything is different. It becomes impossible to argue against his point, which essentially destroys his argument.

Not to mention just because something is arbitrary, it doesn't have to follow that it is meaningless.

That's what I've managed to gather from quickly skimming through the topic, correct me if I'm wrong.

Back on topic though... I really find it silly that just because the 3 most prevalent lords in the series look kind of similar is a reason for exclusion. It's hard to deny that they all have blue hair, but it's easily 3 different shades of blue. Like I've argued in a previous topic, no matter how similar they may look they're 3 different characters, and that's the important part.

Also, I've been playing Awakening non-stop since release, and I never noticed how close to purple Chrom's hair really is. Well done TC, 10/10.


Similarity is not devalued. The value of similarity becomes undefined. There is a difference.

If it is arbitrary then it is irrelevant to anyone who doesn't already agree with the person who makes the arbitrary distinction. I never said it was completely meaningless.
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"Once again, ViewtifulGene's logic blows minds and crushes dreams." -TheGamingGolfer
"Supez teh king" -dedekong
#34Vegeta1000Posted 2/17/2013 4:16:34 PM
I don't care about the 3 blue-haired swordsmen thing. I just don't want the series have all sword users. An axe, lance, or mage user would be pretty good.
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#35RyoukaiPosted 2/17/2013 4:32:14 PM
From: ViewtifulGene | #153
Ryoukai posted...
From: Goshner2 | #108
Really, I'm confused by ViewtifulGene's logic (as obviously trolalcious as it is).

He is claiming that everything is just as similar to everything as everything else.

A blind person has no standard for what is light so, by default everything is dark.

A deaf person has no standard for what is loud so, by default everything is quiet.

If there is no standard for what is different, then by default, everything is the same.

Except, he is using this as an argument for why everything is DIFFERENT.


I ignored most of the argument, but from what I can tell, he's arguing from an outsider's position. By ignoring scales of contrast, it's pretty easy to say that all differences are equal in value, so therefore Marth is as different to Chrom as Luigi is to Kirby.

You would have to quantify the differences on a scale of contrast to quantify the differences, but naturally, that is an arbitrary value created by humans and can differ based on who is doing the quantifying.

Why should we, then, put any value in people's subjective quantifications of differences? There should only be differences and similarities. But if everything is slightly different from another thing, we can no longer have similarities.

The problem now is, 'similar' becomes devalued, so that, no matter what, everything is different. It becomes impossible to argue against his point, which essentially destroys his argument.

Not to mention just because something is arbitrary, it doesn't have to follow that it is meaningless.

That's what I've managed to gather from quickly skimming through the topic, correct me if I'm wrong.

Back on topic though... I really find it silly that just because the 3 most prevalent lords in the series look kind of similar is a reason for exclusion. It's hard to deny that they all have blue hair, but it's easily 3 different shades of blue. Like I've argued in a previous topic, no matter how similar they may look they're 3 different characters, and that's the important part.

Also, I've been playing Awakening non-stop since release, and I never noticed how close to purple Chrom's hair really is. Well done TC, 10/10.


Similarity is not devalued. The value of similarity becomes undefined. There is a difference.

If it is arbitrary then it is irrelevant to anyone who doesn't already agree with the person who makes the arbitrary distinction. I never said it was completely meaningless.


I'll admit my understanding of the term 'devalue' is lacking.

I think I'm beginning to see what your point truly is, I apologize for my lack of understanding earlier. The way I see it though, the scale of contrast is a simple way for like-minded people to discuss their positions. Open-minded people will be open to being swayed to different positions on the scale, while others may simply dismiss another's position on the scale as irrelevant if their positions differ. In matters such as these, it is impossible to come to an objective conclusion unless the element of arbitrariness is removed, as you have done.

Basically, opinions.
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#36Goshner2Posted 2/17/2013 4:59:18 PM
TrueKirby posted...
What happened to Goshner?


???

It's not like I disappeared for THAT long.

Besides, is it so unbelievable that I would be pulled away by the pesky thing called life?
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"And I will never support Chrom." -Doug314
#37Goshner2Posted 2/17/2013 5:01:09 PM
I do appreciate ViewtifulGene following a ridiculous line of logic to it's end. It's sort of like Inception. We have to go deeper!
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Deceased Prince of Popcorn of the Skyward Sword Board
"And I will never support Chrom." -Doug314
#38ShadowMegaman1(Topic Creator)Posted 2/17/2013 5:05:01 PM
Goshner2 posted...
I do appreciate ViewtifulGene following a ridiculous line of logic to it's end. It's sort of like Inception. We have to go deeper!


It isn't that ridiculous. May not be the most fitting illustration, but I understand what he/she is trying to convey.
#39SpunkySixPosted 2/17/2013 6:18:18 PM
ShadowMegaman1 posted...
Goshner2 posted...
I do appreciate ViewtifulGene following a ridiculous line of logic to it's end. It's sort of like Inception. We have to go deeper!


It isn't that ridiculous. May not be the most fitting illustration, but I understand what he/she is trying to convey.


I get it too, but he's saying that objectively Ike and Marth are as different as Squirtle and Ganon, which isn't true even if you don't apply weight. If we counted up every single thing between both characters that is different, the second set would have more even without weight.

Besides the fact that arbitrary weights can still follow a logic that gives importance to key features of a character and be reasonable. Ike and Marth might have different body types, swords and faces, but Ganon is an evil human magic user and Squirtle is a water squirting turtle animal. It's safe to say that one is more similar than the other in the same way that it's safe to say that the man holding a knife to your throat is more likely to kill you than the girl with a boquet of roses... without context it's possible that knife guy won't kill you, but it makes a ton more sense that he will. One is clearly the logical answer.

I mean honestly, another way to put this, how many people would say Sonic 2K6 was better than Sonic 3+K? Because that's an opinion technically, but it's one that almost nobody in the general gaming population has. You present my two sets to anybody in the world and pretty much 999,999 times out of a million, they'll say the lords are more similar. Aesthetics aren't always be judged on a scientific scale because we have common sense.
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#40ViewtifulGenePosted 2/17/2013 6:25:26 PM(edited)
SpunkySix posted...
ShadowMegaman1 posted...
Goshner2 posted...
I do appreciate ViewtifulGene following a ridiculous line of logic to it's end. It's sort of like Inception. We have to go deeper!


It isn't that ridiculous. May not be the most fitting illustration, but I understand what he/she is trying to convey.


I get it too, but he's saying that objectively Ike and Marth are as different as Squirtle and Ganon, which isn't true even if you don't apply weight. If we counted up every single thing between both characters that is different, the second set would have more even without weight.

False. I'm saying objectively we know nothing other than that differences exist in both pairs. I never said the differences were equal. I said we cannot objectively quantify the differences. If we can't quantify them it means the difference is undefined, not that it's equal.

Besides the fact that arbitrary weights can still follow a logic that gives importance to key features of a character and be reasonable. Ike and Marth might have different body types, swords and faces, but Ganon is an evil human magic user and Squirtle is a water squirting turtle animal. It's safe to say that one is more similar than the other in the same way that it's safe to say that the man holding a knife to your throat is more likely to kill you than the girl with a boquet of roses... without context it's possible that knife guy won't kill you, but it makes a ton more sense that he will. One is clearly the logical answer.

Still arbitrary for you to discount one set of differences over the other when relevant differences exist in both cases. You're still ignoring one set of relevant differences because you don't like it as much as the other. Objectively we are unable to conclude anything other than the fact that differences exist. Objectively there is no way to weigh one difference over another. To quantify the differences you turn to arbitrary subjectivity.

I mean honestly, another way to put this, how many people would say Sonic 2K6 was better than Sonic 3+K? Because that's an opinion technically, but it's one that almost nobody in the general gaming population has. You present my two sets to anybody in the world and pretty much 999,999 times out of a million, they'll say the lords are more similar. Aesthetics aren't always be judged on a scientific scale because we have common sense.


You have no proof that virtually nobody in the general population considers Marth and Ike different. All you have proven is that you don't like the differences between Marth and Ike as much as the differences between some other pair of characters. Flawed comparison is flawed.
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"Once again, ViewtifulGene's logic blows minds and crushes dreams." -TheGamingGolfer
"Supez teh king" -dedekong