It's hard for me to imagine a new Pikmin type with what Pikmin 2 accomplished

#1ShenkomiPosted 7/28/2011 1:14:15 PM
I know several people have already thought-up and discussed Pikmin ideas over the past few years, but quite frankly I can't really see any new types of Pikmin being added in the game. Even though it seems inevitable that at least one new type of Pikmin will be introduced, it is hard to even guess what this Pikmin can do without even knowing what is in store for the new game.

New hazards, for one, seem to be tough to implement into the game. I cannot see anything other than the four elements plus explosives (and wind, to a lesser extent) being added to the game other than for the sake of adding new element-resistant Pikmin. Quite frankly, I'd much prefer variations on the hazards which make the existing Pikmin more useful rather than tossing more types to do new jobs.

Let's face it: Red Pikmin are pretty much outclassed in almost all practical scenarios given a normal day. One of their stronger points in the first game was their combat, but with Purple Pikmin they aren't really needed there anymore. The only good thing they have going for them is they're disposable. I s'pose the best thing to do is to give them a reason to be used, which in my mind can only be done with more dangerous fire hazards. They don't really need a new ability, seeing as they already have a multiplier on their attack strength,

If there ever was a situation where bomb rocks were ever used again, I think it'd be fair to give them back to Yellow Pikmin. It's not completely necessary to make a new Pikmin just to take care of an old ability, plus it could also add to their combat effectiveness. I've heard of ideas containing explosive-resistant Pikmin, but to me such an idea isn't all too great. The point of bomb rocks IS to fear them, since they hurt everyone and automatically remove themselves. Giving a common weakness to all forms of Pikmin means that hazard is indeed a threat, which helps keep the player aware of their surroundings.

Blue Pikmin are notorious for their ability to pretty much go wherever the heck they want. Even so, they don't have much else going for them. No attack multipliers, no throwing distance variants, no speed differences - they're the standard which everyone is compared to. Perhaps they do not need a new ability, but rather a way to improve their current one: life guarding. I don't really understand why a Blue Pikmin needs to be idle in order to save a drowning comrade. If they could save Pikmin by a whistle command, then perhaps they'd be a bit more helpful. Sure, most times it's simply one or two Pikmin who fall into a body of water, both of whom can be rescued by whistling them to shore. But what if a whole mass of them fell in? Perhaps it'd be easier to just swarm them w/ Blues. Heck, maybe even just alter the life-guarding ability where the Blues don't just toss them onto shore, but rather carry them back. I dunno, but there's some potential in their life guarding abilities.

I also think a popular notion is to bring Bulbmin to the surface. I have to disagree with that, since there'd be no point in even bothering with other Pikmin types besides probably Purples. They're more of a bonus Pikmin to aid you in tough dungeons - a wild card to fill in the loose strands due to Pikmin losses in critical areas. Where as at the surface, the primary Pikmin can freely produce in greater numbers and fill in lost Pikmin as the day goes by. Sure, Bulbmin numbers would be limited on the surface, but they would be the least likely to be lost in combat due to their rarity, pretty much acquiring the titles as "Trap Destroyers".

These changes are of course just my own thoughts about the upcoming title. I cannot say anything else until more news comes out about it, but until then I guess I'll guess in the dark like many others as to what ought to appear in the game.
#2Boo DestroyerPosted 7/28/2011 1:41:39 PM(edited)
First off, Pikmin 2 was that much of a big complete package that it will indeed be hard for the next game to outclass it. So if the third game does end up being largely similar to the second, I won't even be that surprised.

And most importantly, you can't just have a whole rainbow of Pikmin just for the sake of it. They all have to have their important uses. Besides element resistance, what else could they try to do?

No sense in just throwing in Green, Orange, and Pink just to "complete the rainbow" or something. What can they really do that will make them stand out more? That's what's important.



And the only other major hazard I could think of being added is ice, which freezes Pikmin. And there could possibly be one ice-resistant type, gray or something.
...But is that really that big of an addition?
#3Sparx401Posted 7/28/2011 3:09:30 PM
Or they could add, you know, more gameplay mechanics that you can do with Pikmin. Someone on these boards thought of each pikmin color having a special "formation", and for my Pikmin 3 idea, I've implemented the concept of "rolling" pikmin (alongside throwing and swarming), so that opens up more avenues and varying attributes without having to resort to adding pikmin for the sake of having more pikmin and elements.

Basically I am agreeing with the above posters except for the fact that having new pikmin not only is inevitable, but isn't a bad thing. I don't think that Pikmin 2 is "a complete package" by any means, because they can just take out colors (except for the three primary ones for consistency's sake) and add new ones. People can be reluctant to take out colors because it's never been done in the series before, but considering that there's only been two games, I don't consider that normative at all, and I personally don't see anything wrong with dropping purple and/or white pikmin, not necessarily because purples are broken, but because the developers probably want to try new things and don't want to be superficially "locked in" by their own creations.

Also, you have to keep in mind the objective of the game. In the first, it was collecting ship parts. In the second, it was collecting treasure. We need to know, at minimum, what the main goal is for the game before anyone can really think of meaningful pikmin types. Since this is primarily an RTS, the pikmin are considered your resources to help you attain said goal; ergo, you can't make up new tools/resources if you don't know what you're supposed to be doing. Trying to think of new pikmin ideas "in a vacuum" so-to-speak ultimately ends up being nothing more than a Pikmin 2+ or a Pikmin 2.5.

They don't really need a new ability, seeing as they already have a multiplier on their attack strength,

Oh yes they do, they were so useless in Pikmin 2 it wasn't even funny; they were basically purple and white candypop fodder. The attack multiplier attribute doesn't help them in the long run either, even if they did nerf purple pikmin. A new ability for them would help balance them out, though it doesn't even have to be "attack" or combat related.

No sense in just throwing in Green, Orange, and Pink just to "complete the rainbow" or something. What can they really do that will make them stand out more? That's what's important.

This.
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#4Shenkomi(Topic Creator)Posted 7/28/2011 3:48:04 PM
"Basically I am agreeing with the above posters except for the fact that having new pikmin not only is inevitable, but isn't a bad thing."

I also don't think adding new Pikmin is a bad thing, it's just that quite a few of the ideas suggested were really poorly executed. From what I could gather, the basic formula was Elemental Immunity + Tacked-on secondary ability, which kind of hinders the Pikmin's own capabilities.

I didn't want to say Red Pikmin should get a new ability considering how the other primary colored Pikmin work, but considering all the special abilities of Purples and Whites makes me reconsider. I can only think up a few ideas which would work for Reds, however, and none of them are too amazing in my mind:
- More "cling". Basically, they'll stick to enemies longer, either requiring two relatively small "shakes" to fall off or to just hang on through forceful impacts (like a Wollywog's pound or something like that). Obviously this is a more combat-oriented role, but again Purples kind of own that area.
- Faster construction / demolition? Even though this point's pretty moot underground, it could be great for above ground where things don't role quite as fast. Though, if bomb rocks are reintroduced, the faster demo time will probably be oversought.
- Ability to extinguish flaming enemies. Although in doing this, there's pretty much no point in even using more than a small amount of Reds in the first place. Perhaps temporarily putting the flames out while clung and a three second "warm-up" phase once no reds are left?

Again, my ideas are not all that great. It's hard for me to see these ideas ever coming true, but heck some of them will happen anyways.

It is an interesting concept to remove a certain type of Pikmin in the next game. The logical explanation would be the Candypop buds' inability to grow in the new region, which makes enough sense to me. However, it might just end up doing more harm than good to remove Purples or Whites.
#5Boo DestroyerPosted 7/28/2011 4:30:37 PM
Going a bit off topic, I'm not as concerned about what kind of story there will be next time. Whatever it is, it will still involve collecting/carrying a bunch of stuff back to the ship.

I once thought about there being a definite villain in there, but that idea went right to hell and got scrapped. I like Pikmin as a man-vs-nature affair. Even the enemy monster collection in PIkmin 2 reeks of completion. I may take any new ones next time, but all of these so far are gold.

Olimar's family and home planet, well, all that stuff is better off as backseat material. The Pikmin themselves are the real stars of this series, if you will.
#6Mr_MewPosted 7/28/2011 4:45:03 PM
Shenkomi posted...
"Basically I am agreeing with the above posters except for the fact that having new pikmin not only is inevitable, but isn't a bad thing."

I also don't think adding new Pikmin is a bad thing, it's just that quite a few of the ideas suggested were really poorly executed. From what I could gather, the basic formula was Elemental Immunity + Tacked-on secondary ability, which kind of hinders the Pikmin's own capabilities.

I didn't want to say Red Pikmin should get a new ability considering how the other primary colored Pikmin work, but considering all the special abilities of Purples and Whites makes me reconsider. I can only think up a few ideas which would work for Reds, however, and none of them are too amazing in my mind:
- More "cling". Basically, they'll stick to enemies longer, either requiring two relatively small "shakes" to fall off or to just hang on through forceful impacts (like a Wollywog's pound or something like that). Obviously this is a more combat-oriented role, but again Purples kind of own that area.
- Faster construction / demolition? Even though this point's pretty moot underground, it could be great for above ground where things don't role quite as fast. Though, if bomb rocks are reintroduced, the faster demo time will probably be oversought.
- Ability to extinguish flaming enemies. Although in doing this, there's pretty much no point in even using more than a small amount of Reds in the first place. Perhaps temporarily putting the flames out while clung and a three second "warm-up" phase once no reds are left?

Again, my ideas are not all that great. It's hard for me to see these ideas ever coming true, but heck some of them will happen anyways.

It is an interesting concept to remove a certain type of Pikmin in the next game. The logical explanation would be the Candypop buds' inability to grow in the new region, which makes enough sense to me. However, it might just end up doing more harm than good to remove Purples or Whites.



I actually like your idea regarding cling. To add onto it, they can stay on longer for an additional shake or two because their noses get embedded in the enemy's hide or something? I mean everything else regarding them would be the same regarding combat, but they can simply stay on longer.
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#7ArtOfWarfarePosted 7/28/2011 4:52:18 PM
Mr_Mew posted...
I actually like your idea regarding cling. To add onto it, they can stay on longer for an additional shake or two because their noses get embedded in the enemy's hide or something? I mean everything else regarding them would be the same regarding combat, but they can simply stay on longer.

I too like the cling idea.

I also like the idea of the red pikmin being able to attack faster and complete tasks faster.
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#8OathToOblivionPosted 7/28/2011 5:27:13 PM
It actually makes sense in-universe. The reds were the first ones woken up in Pikmin 1, and Olimar's suit also has red on it. By that logic, they would work faster for Olimar than the other Pikmin types.
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#9Shenkomi(Topic Creator)Posted 7/28/2011 6:06:12 PM
I'm actually kind of surprised how my "cling" idea caught on. I always figured someone would say "The stun of the purples is way better than Pikmin just sticking on longer", But heck, if sticking on just a little longer makes Red Pikmin that much better, then who am I to argue against it?

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While I'm at it, I may as well bring up hazards into the discussion. When Boo Destroyer mentioned ice hazards, I thought about it for a bit. The way I see it, frost would either simply slow down Pikmin to a snail's pace, or freeze and insta-kill them. It depends on how exactly the ice works, though, if it simply chills the Pikmin or encases them in a block of ice. I can't really see it as a hazard overground, considering how the Pikmin managed to traverse the Valley of Repose without harm. I can see enemies with Frost Breath or incredibly cold bodies, but I dunno exactly how they'd be found naturally, considering dungeons are supposed to be warmer than the surface areas.

I've been playing at the idea of wind traps conquerable by Purple Pikmin. Admittedly, they'd be more of an annoyance rather than a threat, as the continual airstream will push back all the lightweight Pikmin - and even Captains, if they aren't properly weighed down. It certainly isn't one of the greatest ideas for hazards, but it would be interesting to see more wind threats implemented.
#10Sparx401Posted 7/28/2011 10:27:19 PM
I also don't think adding new Pikmin is a bad thing, it's just that quite a few of the ideas suggested were really poorly executed. From what I could gather, the basic formula was Elemental Immunity + Tacked-on secondary ability, which kind of hinders the Pikmin's own capabilities.

I concur; of course, I was presuming that if one were to add an ability to red pikmin, it ought to be good and cohesive.

...However, it might just end up doing more harm than good to remove Purples or Whites.

How so exactly? They can either divvy up Pikmin (depends on the gameplay structure) between, for example, night and day so as to not "clog" the landing site or think of some new idea alongside candypop buds and onions in terms of propagation and storage. Removing purples and whites would give Pikmin 2 that "unique" feel since it would be the only game to feature purple and white pikmin. To be honest though, I much rather have purple pikmin removed more than white pikmin.

It actually makes sense in-universe. The reds were the first ones woken up in Pikmin 1, and Olimar's suit also has red on it. By that logic, they would work faster for Olimar than the other Pikmin types.

That makes no sense at all.

I always figured someone would say "The stun of the purples is way better than Pikmin just sticking on longer", But heck, if sticking on just a little longer makes Red Pikmin that much better, then who am I to argue against it?

If someone were to argue that the purples' stun ability is way better than just pikmin sticking on longer, they need to consider the fact that purples were pretty broken in Pikmin 2 because of that. Second of all, the "cling" idea sounds more like a "perk" than an actual ability; in fact, technically speaking, since each pikmin does have the ability to cling on to enemies in the first place, red pikmin would just have a higher capacity for clinging on. This isn't a bad thing by any means, but that only limits red pikmin to fighting as opposed to other roles that pikmin have (i.e. - collecting things, breaking things down, etc.) You could argue that yellow pikmin have the capacity for being thrown higher and not an actual distinct "ability" per se, but at least that capacity is "generic" enough to be applied to both fighting (i.e. - aerial enemies and Beady Long Legs) as well as collecting treasure.
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