So, Miyamoto said they went with the more strategic gameplay found in Pikmin 1

#51kirbymastahPosted 6/24/2012 3:52:18 PM

and decided to smite us with their ZOMG PIKMIN 2 IS BETTER IN EVERY WAY crap. I was mostly irritated at the negative comments specifically directed at speed runners. Excuse us for liking some opportunity to challenge ourselves in a video game, and for using strategy in a RTS game. Oops.


this. People that say pikmin 2 > pikmin 1 in every way possible are delusional and stupid and blinded.

There is nothing wrong with enjoying pikmin 2 more than pikmin 1 (I like pikmin 2 a LITTLE BIT MORE than pikmin 1, but love both anyways). There are things that pikmin 1 did objectively better than pikmin 2, and vice-versa, and then there's the few subjective things.
#52-Jester-Masque-Posted 6/24/2012 6:46:03 PM
The only kinds of things that can "objectively" be better are things like frame-rate and sound quality. Even then, there's some room for subjectivity.

I stand by the argument that if you like something better than another thing, it is "better" to you. If you point out that you like something despite it's faults (or maybe even because of them), that doesn't change a thing.

What I see is "better" being equated to popular opinion:

"Sonic [whatever] is almost universally considered to be a bad game, but I like it better than Sonic Colors anyway... but Sonic Colors is still better".

^ This kind of argument is just nonsense to me. If you like a game better than another game, it is "better" to you. That's how subjectivity works. If Nintendo re-made A Link to the Past with re-mastered music, I'd probably still like the original SNES soundtrack better. The original sounds were all muffled and strange sounding, so a re-mastered version would be clearer or crisper. The "better" one would be which ever one I enjoyed more, regardless of the use of newer technology.

What is "better" but that which suits your needs more? To determine what is "better", you have to first understand to what end that thing is "better" at. An Advil is better for relieving my headaches than head-butting the neighbor's house, but the latter is better for causing a headache.

When we're talking about entertainment and you say that one game/movie/whatever is better than another (without going into detail), it is assumed that it did a better job of entertaining you, or it was more enjoyable over-all. Even a point like, "Pikmin 1 was a better RTS than Pikmin 2 was", is problematic without giving details. What you look for in an RTS, or what your idea of what an RTS should be will affect your angle. It's not objective at all. I will admit, however, that when disputing a game's appropriate genre, this can get a little fuzzy. Pikmin simply isn't a FPS, nor is it a platformer. But I would argue that "Action" is a genre which, if taken for its literal meaning, it way too vague. The purpose of genres, after all, is to give people a very rough idea of the kind of game that they are hearing/reading about. Usually I see the "Action" genre attached to games like Devil May Cry, Bayonetta, God of War, Chaos Legion, etc; where gameplay is almost exclusively centered upon fighting enemies with combo attacks and magic.
#53kirbymastahPosted 6/24/2012 7:35:34 PM(edited)
oh really? there's nothing objective at all besides mechanical stuff?

-Pikmin 1 has infinitely more character development than pikmin 2, because pikmin 2 has none at all for olimar, whereas pikmin 1 has olimar constantly writing about his survival, his desperation, his family, his history, his communication with pikmin, etc
-Pikmin 1 has more pikmin color variety/balance than pikmin 2, as in every color is necessary and useful in many, many situations. If you're gonna argue against this, I'm going to have to bring up that 2-post fact that purples completely obliterate red/yellow pikmin use, and that pikmin 2 has NO COLOR BALANCE whatsoever
-Pikmin 2 has much more variety in bosses and enemies as a whole
-Pikmin 1 has much more to do over land than Pikmin 2
-Pikmin 2 has a deeper, more in-depth challenge mode than Pikmin 1

I can see your point that you can't really argue whichever one is more "RTS-y" than the other because again, even though pikmin is INTENDED to be an RTS, the definition itself is subjective, and thus how you define it.

Also, I'm still waiting for your response Realbendario
#54-Jester-Masque-Posted 6/24/2012 9:22:33 PM

-Pikmin 1 has infinitely more character development than pikmin 2, because pikmin 2 has none at all for olimar, whereas pikmin 1 has olimar constantly writing about his survival, his desperation, his family, his history, his communication with pikmin, etc


Just because Olimar's tone is sometimes bleak and woeful in his journals in the first game, it doesn't mean that he has "infinitely more character development". In fact, this is a point where I feel the opposite to be true. I loved the journals in Pikmin 1; I truly did. But reading Olimar's journals in Pikmin 2 really gave me a better idea of how Olimar thinks. He isn't completely absorbed in his new scientific discoveries or his fear of not making it back home. Many of the journals attached to treasures don't really say anything about the treasures themselves, either. They are just random little things that Olimar is thinking/feeling. They occasionally describe conversations or happenings between characters that we don't even really see in-game. I love that stuff. But, to each their own. It is subjective.


-Pikmin 1 has more pikmin color variety/balance than pikmin 2, as in every color is necessary and useful in many, many situations. If you're gonna argue against this, I'm going to have to bring up that 2-post fact that purples completely obliterate red/yellow pikmin use, and that pikmin 2 has NO COLOR BALANCE whatsoever

Objective fact: Pikmin 1 has more colour variety than Pikmin 2.
Not objective fact: Pikmin 1's colours are balanced better and are more necessary than those in Pikmin 2.
First of all, "balanced" is another one of those words that I see people arguing about without even agreeing on its meaning. In Pikmin 1, I almost never used yellow pikmin the first dozen or so times that I played through the game. I used them to reach a few high-up ship parts and to bomb a few stone walls, but that's about it. Even now, I only use them to kill the smoky progg and the emperor bulblax (in the GC version, not the Wii version). I used reds for just about everything that wasn't in water in the first game.

In Pikmin 2, yellows have virtually the same above-ground use as they did in the first game (electric fences instead of stone walls, of course). Below ground, I always use them to fight electric enemies and to disarm electric hazards. They can be taken care of with other pikmin types, but I find that it is much, much too dangerous to risk doing with anything other than yellows. Unfortunately, the red pikmin in the second game don't serve much purpose other than to be upgraded to purples. I wouldn't be surprised if this is why they didn't include too many fire enemies or hazards.


-Pikmin 2 has much more variety in bosses and enemies as a whole


Ok, that's a fact. But it doesn't necessarily make Pikmin 2 better in that regard. I know people who hate bosses; they think that games need to stop including bosses. It's not how I feel, but that goes to my point.


-Pikmin 1 has much more to do over land than Pikmin 2

I'm not convinced that this is true. Maybe you can get the above-ground treasures in Pikmin 2 faster than you can in the first game, but you also have two pilots.


-Pikmin 2 has a deeper, more in-depth challenge mode than Pikmin 1

A deeper, more in-depth challenge mode, eh? Well, I'd agree with that too. I guess I should have also said that additional game modes could also be considered a point for "objective improvements", but even then, if you don't like the challenge or versus modes, they don't make the game better either.
#55kirbymastahPosted 6/25/2012 5:40:29 AM
-Jester-Masque- posted...
Just because Olimar's tone is sometimes bleak and woeful in his journals in the first game, it doesn't mean that he has "infinitely more character development". In fact, this is a point where I feel the opposite to be true. I loved the journals in Pikmin 1; I truly did. But reading Olimar's journals in Pikmin 2 really gave me a better idea of how Olimar thinks. He isn't completely absorbed in his new scientific discoveries or his fear of not making it back home. Many of the journals attached to treasures don't really say anything about the treasures themselves, either. They are just random little things that Olimar is thinking/feeling. They occasionally describe conversations or happenings between characters that we don't even really see in-game. I love that stuff. But, to each their own. It is subjective.


Ok, I guess I forgot about the piklopedia. However, where in pikmin 2 do you get to see how olimar thinks? Sure, you see his family interact with him, but do you ever see HIM talk at all, outside the piklopedia? Never. There is so much more of that in pikmin 1, and there are tons of journal entries in pikmin 1 that really depend on what you did during that day (for example, discovering a pikmin, or suiciding with bombrocks, or fire, etc...) and his reactions/guilt to it. And you learn more about the history behind olimar and his family as you touch every ship part. None of that is in pikmin 2.


Objective fact: Pikmin 1 has more colour variety than Pikmin 2.
Not objective fact: Pikmin 1's colours are balanced better and are more necessary than those in Pikmin 2.
First of all, "balanced" is another one of those words that I see people arguing about without even agreeing on its meaning. In Pikmin 1, I almost never used yellow pikmin the first dozen or so times that I played through the game. I used them to reach a few high-up ship parts and to bomb a few stone walls, but that's about it. Even now, I only use them to kill the smoky progg and the emperor bulblax (in the GC version, not the Wii version). I used reds for just about everything that wasn't in water in the first game.


Yes, pikmin 1 is balanced better, though with the definition of required use of each color and how useful each color is. FACT. How do you not see this?

Yes, you don't need yellow pikmin in high numbers in pikmin 1, but you still NEED them. Having an army of around 10-20 yellows is still NECESSARY for those few high parts, and taking down stone walls, which REALLY MAKES A BIG DIFFERENCE. After all, 6-day challenge is impossible without taking down those few optional stone walls. Yellows are practically invaluable against beady long legs; it's ridiculously hard to take down beady long legs without yellows. And bomb-rocks are just ridiculously good against enemies in general. Yellows are necessary (though in small numbers), and also ridiculously useful (also in small numbers). Of course, they got horribly nerfed in the wii version thanks to being unable to drop bombrocks simultaneously, so yellows are more on the useless end in WPC pikmin 1... why did they do that...

Obviously reds and blues are both necessary, especially for forest navel and distant spring respectively. And water immunity is more useful than fire immunity, but reds have their attack bonus to make up for it; even though bomb-rocks work way better than using reds anyways, that attack bonus is actually useful as bomb-rocks are limited and not close to as OP as purples.
#56kirbymastahPosted 6/25/2012 5:40:46 AM
Compare this to pikmin 2, where:

-blues have the same use as in pikmin 1, AKA necessary in high numbers
-reds are completely useless and never needed in the game, nor useful as purples completely outclass them in combat, and fire immunity is the most useless immunity in the game, and it's safer/faster/less riskier to take out fiery bulblaxes on land with purples ANYWAYS
-yellows are completely useless outside of taking down electric walls (yes, you don't even need them for high treasures, unlike in pikmin 1) AND the fact that they fly higher is a LIABILITY in combat as it takes them almost twice as longer to land where you're aiming them, meaning you are much more likely to miss; the ONLY combat use they ever have is titan dweevil (yes, not even beady long legs as it's lower so you can reach it REALLY EASILY with non-yellows and insta-kill it by tossing purples at its legs)
-whites are OP in high numbers, and poison immunity is required as poison traps never turn off. and they're ridiculously fast and efficient
-purples. nuff said.

In Pikmin 2, yellows have virtually the same above-ground use as they did in the first game (electric fences instead of stone walls, of course).

but as I mentioned, yellows are INVALUABLE in combat in pikmin 1 thanks to bombrocks. Unlike purples, though, bombrocks are limited, and take time to get, and can't be used against air, so bombrocks aren't, ridiculously OP, but still, you really underestimate bombrocks. Yellows definitely have much more above-ground use in pikmin 1 than in pikmin 2, especially since the high treasures in pikmin 2 are more convenient to get with purples anyways, whereas the high treasures in pikmin 1 are near impossible to reach with any other color.

Below ground, I always use them to fight electric enemies and to disarm electric hazards. They can be taken care of with other pikmin types, but I find that it is much, much too dangerous to risk doing with anything other than yellows.

The only regular electric enemies in the game are yellow dweevils and anode beetles. Both of which are faster and more convenient to take out with purples, as long as you're not stupid to throw purples while they're discharging. As I mentioned, yellows take forever to land, so it's much harder to flip anode beetles with yellows, whereas with purples, you can literally flip over 4 anode beetles at once with purple's shockwaves. Heck, you can even toss a purple while an anode beetle is discharging, and land it NEXT TO IT to flip it. now for yellow dweevils, purples home in, and they don't discharge until attacked, but 3-4 purples insta-kill it, and stun it, so there is no risk at all in throwing purples at yellow dweevils, whereas using yellow pikmin is infinitely harder thanks to them taking forever to land and missing moving targets, and weaker attack power. Or just use your captains.

Now, I understand using yellows to take out electric hazards, since they're insta-kill. But really, that's the only purpose yellows serve in caves, and you underestimate how easy it is to take out electric hazards with an army of at least even 50 pikmin, and with a little practice, at no risk whatsoever. Heck, there's a reason why I say purples are OP. They take out hazards so quickly, that there is no risk at all in using an army of lots of purples on electric gates, because they have double attack power. It seems riskier at first, but it's much faster, much more convenient, and no risk at all once you learn the timing, and the more purples you have, the less risk there is, ironically enough, thanks to how OP purples are.
#57kirbymastahPosted 6/25/2012 5:42:13 AM
Unfortunately, the red pikmin in the second game don't serve much purpose other than to be upgraded to purples. I wouldn't be surprised if this is why they didn't include too many fire enemies or hazards.

the only use reds have is candypop fodder, that's it. they're 100% useless. I literally end my games with 1 red.



-Pikmin 1 has much more to do over land than Pikmin 2

I'm not convinced that this is true. Maybe you can get the above-ground treasures in Pikmin 2 faster than you can in the first game, but you also have two pilots.


Getting stuff in pikmin 2 faster with two pilots is not equal to having more to do.

But I'm actually wrong about this, it's actually the other way around, but not for the reason you gave; there's still berry harvesting in pikmin 2 and more secrets like the 2 gold beetles in awakening woods, and pikmin 1 doesn't really have anything like that. So really thanks to berry harvesting, there is more to do in pikmin 2 than pikmin 1 overworld, so I guess I'm wrong about that
#58TriforceBunPosted 6/25/2012 11:20:53 AM
Am I the only one who never really had more than 30 (or so) Purple Pikmin? Their rarity still balanced out their power for me, and since I was afraid of losing them, I'd only take about 10-15 into a cave (and would usually lose about half of them somewhere in the cave anyway), making Reds my main "low-risk" attack unit. Maybe I'm just not a great Pikmin player.

The other point I'd like to make about Pikmin 1 vs. 2 is the frustration of Pikmin 1's controls compared to the second. I was about to tear my hair out the tenth time the Yellows would screw up their bomb-rock attacks on Bulblax, either by throwing it at his hard shell, dropping it in the wrong place, or (way too often) blowing up the rest of my team with it somehow. The bomb-rock controls were cumbersome and frustrating, and the AI in general was more irritating to deal with in Pikmin 1, leading to more of the bad kind of challenge.

Another example--Wollywogs were just plain annoying to fight. The Pikmin return much slower in Pikmin 1, so you either have to have the patience to whittle away the frog's health a tiny amount at a time, or throw a bunch and try to get them to return all at once. And there were countless times where the whistle would spread over the whole team, and one or two wouldn't become aware for whatever reason. This happened a lot when Pikmin drank nectar too.

And the pathfinding! I can't believe how many Pikmin I lost just from going over a (fairly wide) land bridge with water on the side. It's awful having a tenth of your squadron drown just because they couldn't stay on the ledge correctly. Or they'd trip and get left behind and turn idle or something.

Pikmin 2 tweaked all this and made the Pikmin faster, smarter, and simply more obedient, leading to the feeling of having a lot more control over your squadron. To me, that's a major point in Pikmin 2's favor.
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#59kirbymastahPosted 6/25/2012 12:03:33 PM
TriforceBun posted...
Am I the only one who never really had more than 30 (or so) Purple Pikmin? Their rarity still balanced out their power for me, and since I was afraid of losing them, I'd only take about 10-15 into a cave (and would usually lose about half of them somewhere in the cave anyway), making Reds my main "low-risk" attack unit. Maybe I'm just not a great Pikmin player.

I'll be blunt, you probably aren't that good. But the reason why whites are balanced and not purples, is that you need at least 30-50 whites for their OP-ness to truly shine, aka their speed, and maybe even sacrificing them to kill enemies instantly. Purples, yes, they are rare, but you only need at most 10 to slay any enemy almost instantly. And guess what, you get 15 for free in day 2, and that number keeps going up!

You really should never have more than 30 purple pikmin going into a cave, not because they're rare, but because even just 20 is more than enough to kill everything instantly, and having more than 30 is a waste of space because 30 purples is borderline overkill. Really, the more purples you have, the LESS RISKY it is to lose them (but diminishing returns as you go past the 20-30 threshold), because it becomes much easier to kill enemies, and destroy hazards and walls (yes, purples destroy them even faster as well). This is why you hear me insist that the ideal cave pikmin composition is 30 purples, 70 whites for no water, or 45 whites and 25 blues with water.

The other point I'd like to make about Pikmin 1 vs. 2 is the frustration of Pikmin 1's controls compared to the second. I was about to tear my hair out the tenth time the Yellows would screw up their bomb-rock attacks on Bulblax, either by throwing it at his hard shell, dropping it in the wrong place, or (way too often) blowing up the rest of my team with it somehow. The bomb-rock controls were cumbersome and frustrating, and the AI in general was more irritating to deal with in Pikmin 1, leading to more of the bad kind of challenge.

You're either playing pikmin 1 wii or don't know how to abuse bombrocks. There's a reason why the GC is infinitely better for pikmin 1. In the GC version, you always want to toss a bombrock pikmin at the spot you want them to drop it (NEVER on top of an enemy), and whistle them back immediately because then the pikmin will DROP and trigger the bombrock. So for red bulborbs, toss two bombrock yellow pikmin quickly by it, whistle them as they land, and both bombrocks will blow up and OHKO the bulborb before it wakes up (3 needed for bulbears, 2 for fiery blowhobs/wollywogs). In the wii version, they made it so yellow pikmin don't drop bombrocks, so it becomes impossible to trigger more than one bombrock simultaneously, and thus bombrocks are near useless for combat in WPC.

Another example-.......

I can understand this, as pikmin in the first game don't react instantly to the whistle as they do in pikmin 2 (for them to RELIABLY react in pikmin 1, you have to hold the whistle in place for the entire duration), but this is more of the control issue rather than combat balance, and yes, thank god pikmin 2 fixed it. Wollywogs are just as annoying to fight in pikmin 2 as pikmin 1 if you don't use purples/sprays (ignoring glitch). The strategy is to dodge its drop, throw about 3-5 pikmin on its back, let it hop, and whistle those 3-5 pikmin that fall off after the wollywog lands. If you're good at fast-pikmin tossing, you can get 15-20 on without any risk and kill it within about 3 rounds reliably, but I rarely do this outside water in GC pikmin 1 because lawl bombrocks, toss two bombrock yellows some distance away, let the wollywog jump over, then whistle them back so the wollywog will land on the bombrocks. GG.
#60kirbymastahPosted 6/25/2012 12:57:20 PM(edited)
And the pathfinding! I can't believe how many Pikmin I lost just from going over a (fairly wide) land bridge with water on the side. It's awful having a tenth of your squadron drown just because they couldn't stay on the ledge correctly. Or they'd trip and get left behind and turn idle or something.

Pikmin 2 tweaked all this and made the Pikmin faster, smarter, and simply more obedient, leading to the feeling of having a lot more control over your squadron. To me, that's a major point in Pikmin 2's favor.


The tripping I understand, blame sakurai for that. Pikmin 2 fixed tripping issues, glitches (aka fall-through-floor and mysterious under-bridge death) and some pikmin AI things much better, but it's not 100% improvement. The high treasures have a tendency to get completely stuck, and glitch into corners in pikmin 2 (COUGH GERKIN GATE COUGH), thus making it near impossible to get the treasure that same day. This NEVER happens in pikmin 1, as pikmin are triggered to 'take damage' (aka lose flower) from falling from high heights, which is realistic, allows the ship part to rebalance itself and not glitch into a wall/corner.

Yes, pikmin AI as a whole did improve in pikmin 2; it better have. But I don't know what you're talking about in pikmin 1, going over a land bridge with water on the side and pikmin drowning... Can you give me a specific example? Because the only time this really has happened is pikmin trying to carry the ship part from the snagret area (and you should use blues for that so they'll take the shortcut across the pond)...