Worst character in the game? Final round- Phoenix Wright vs GR vs Hsien-Ko

#61serpentaurusPosted 12/8/2012 8:39:28 PM(edited)
StrykeBlayde posted...
jaganshi2 posted...
@Phentsy

GR and HK don't **** up team dynamics like PW does, you should take that on note. You can have so much skill with PW and make a great team around him but it really wouldn't matter unless you get 3 good evidence and a landed objection. With HK and GR on the other hand, they can be given an easier route through a well team building and good skill of the player, but with PW. NO.

I think PW is defended due to his popularity, he has one of the most dedicated fan bases in the game, and he is the most popular capcom character right now. Needless to say, there is just no logical way to reason PW being better than HK and GR because of that luck factor.

Last: If you've watched the streams right, PW would not have any good results if Chris G wouldn't revert to different teams. He reverted to a different team more times than he used his PW team and when ever he used PW, it was always his other two characters who did the most work.


Except at his best, he:
Outdamages
Outzones
Outkeepaways
Out-hypers 2/3 of the hypers(Penance Stare and Gold Armor are the only two worthwhile hypers of the other two)

Both Ghost Rider and Hsien-ko, and at his worst he still pulls of the same damage as Hsien-ko(he can even loop Maya, though it's through his THC trick) and has a better offensive hyper in Steel Samurai(she goes through everything) than both of them. At his absolute worst, he's 49th.


PW doesnt "outzone" anybody if you dont get the piece of evidence necessary, and even with the so called evidence the matchups are pretty terrible cause he has nothing more
PW has no mixups or normals to theoretically get a hit
Hsienko has decent normals and she can burn XF and kill from any clean hitconfirm, Lv1 Phoenix Wright cant even do that, even chars with ass damage output like Ammy and Firebrand can burn XF and kill from any hitconfirm
Hsienko swords "go through everything" so what
People summoning on the "PW unblockable" as if it was a big deal, Hsienko has two unblockable setups that work on incoming characters way better than that *** Wright unblockable, still not better than a bottom 5 due to her obvious flaws
Ghost Rider hypers are not THAT bad either

people saying that Wright has good hypers seriously have no idea what they are talking about, specially in this game where everybody has a cheap set of hypers

And this thread is wrong anyway. Ironfist is not better than Hsienko or Ghost Rider either. Thats the character with real 0 options in the game, the damage output and ground mobility are the only things saving him from being worse than Wright

I honestly dont know why the Wright players are so defensive about Wright not being the worst char in the game, he is really bad. Champ with GR do wayyyy better than when ChrisG play Wright, that should be more than enough evidence to prove who is better. If mr LLND played a better point character with Hsienko second he would do good
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#62MK9_ProdigyPosted 12/8/2012 8:45:36 PM
serpentaurus posted...
StrykeBlayde posted...
jaganshi2 posted...
@Phentsy

GR and HK don't **** up team dynamics like PW does, you should take that on note. You can have so much skill with PW and make a great team around him but it really wouldn't matter unless you get 3 good evidence and a landed objection. With HK and GR on the other hand, they can be given an easier route through a well team building and good skill of the player, but with PW. NO.

I think PW is defended due to his popularity, he has one of the most dedicated fan bases in the game, and he is the most popular capcom character right now. Needless to say, there is just no logical way to reason PW being better than HK and GR because of that luck factor.

Last: If you've watched the streams right, PW would not have any good results if Chris G wouldn't revert to different teams. He reverted to a different team more times than he used his PW team and when ever he used PW, it was always his other two characters who did the most work.


Except at his best, he:
Outdamages
Outzones
Outkeepaways
Out-hypers 2/3 of the hypers(Penance Stare and Gold Armor are the only two worthwhile hypers of the other two)

Both Ghost Rider and Hsien-ko, and at his worst he still pulls of the same damage as Hsien-ko(he can even loop Maya, though it's through his THC trick) and has a better offensive hyper in Steel Samurai(she goes through everything) than both of them. At his absolute worst, he's 49th.


PW doesnt "outzone" anybody if you dont get the piece of evidence necessary, and even with the so called evidence the matchups are pretty terrible cause he has nothing more
PW has no mixups or normals to theoretically get a hit
Hsienko has decent normals and she can burn XF and kill from any clean hitconfirm, Lv1 Phoenix Wright cant even do that, even chars with ass damage output like Ammy and Firebrand can burn XF and kill from any hitconfirm
Hsienko swords "go through everything" so what
People summoning on the "PW unblockable" as if it was a big deal, Hsienko has two unblockable setups that work on incoming characters way better than that *** Wright unblockable, still not better than a bottom 5 due to her obvious flaws
Ghost Rider hypers are not THAT bad either

people saying that Wright has good hypers seriously have no idea what they are talking about, specially in this game where everybody has a cheap set of hypers

And this thread is wrong anyway. Ironfist is not better than Hsienko or Ghost Rider either. Thats the character with real 0 options in the game, the damage output and ground mobility are the only things saving him from being worse than Wright

I honestly dont know why the Wright players are so defensive about Wright not being the worst char in the game, he is really bad. Champ with GR do wayyyy better than when ChrisG play Wright, that should be more than enough evidence to prove who is better. If mr LLND played a better point character with Hsienko second he would do good


I agree whole-heartedly. But PW's hypers aren't bad by anymeans, they are pretty good.

I disagree on the Iron Fist part. Iron Fist is not that bad.
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#63StrykeBlaydePosted 12/8/2012 8:54:16 PM
serpentaurus posted...
PW doesnt "outzone" anybody if you dont get the piece of evidence necessary, and even with the so called evidence the matchups are pretty terrible cause he has nothing more


Any of his evidence projectiles > anything Hsien-ko has that isn't gong > the one projectile that GR has

PW has no mixups or normals to theoretically get a hit

Overhead, Steel Samurai's final hit hitting low, normals that AA pretty good

Hsienko has decent normals and she can burn XF and kill from any clean hitconfirm, Lv1 Phoenix Wright cant even do that, even chars with ass damage output like Ammy and Firebrand can burn XF and kill from any hitconfirm

Decent normals maybe, but they're more suited for rushdown which she just sucks at. And again, THC Trick with Steel Samurai at least lets him mimic Tenrai Ha loops.

Hsienko swords "go through everything" so what

Phoenix Wright gets hit, Maya still goes through everything
Hsien-ko gets hit, swords stop existing

People summoning on the "PW unblockable" as if it was a big deal, Hsienko has two unblockable setups that work on incoming characters way better than that *** Wright unblockable, still not better than a bottom 5 due to her obvious flaws
Ghost Rider hypers are not THAT bad either


Unblockable that actually works, or incoming set-ups with Lolhsien-ko, hm....

people saying that Wright has good hypers seriously have no idea what they are talking about, specially in this game where everybody has a cheap set of hypers

Ghost Rider's hypers, save Penance Stare, are not good. Maelstrom does pretty bad damage and can be ducked for most of it, and while SoV can plow through things, no start-up invincibility and it being armor'd can hurt him pretty badly.

Lolhsien-ko only has one worthwhile hyper in Gold Armor. Tenrai Ha can be looped, but really that's about it.

I honestly dont know why the Wright players are so defensive about Wright not being the worst char in the game, he is really bad. Champ with GR do wayyyy better than when ChrisG play Wright, that should be more than enough evidence to prove who is better. If mr LLND played a better point character with Hsienko second he would do good


'Cause he's not the worst character, even factoring luck into the equation.
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#64ProzacStylingsPosted 12/8/2012 9:06:33 PM
serpentaurus posted...
Herr_Edgeworth posted...
He also has 3 hypers, PW only has 1 starting the round lol

It takes about one second to change into Trial Mode and use OitC, so it doesn't really matter.


one seconds is 60 frames for me, more than enough for Wolvie to strike two dive kicks

@merc, is PW mobility any better?, is GR mobility any better? at least HK has a decent backward wavedash and a "teleport". (*** teleport, but still better than anything PW has)


Yes. Much.

Hsien-ko's dash is complete ass. Even Arthur has a better dash(c wut i did thur, 6H ftw).

Her air dash is also completely and ridiculously unusably slow.

Her jump is also slow and floaty.

She's like an amputee, hobbling around the screen.

Because of these things, and her otherwise lackluster tools, she is the worst character in the game. Haggar can wavedash in and jump in with Pipe. She is a slower haggar, with no damage and average priority, with her only redeeming quality being an inconsistent assist(which also isn't as good as haggar's, hah).

Whatever her tools are, she cannot put herself in a position to use them unless the opponent plays poorly.

tl;dr If you're using Hsien-ko, you could change her out for Haggar right now, play the exact same way, and be instantly better.
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#65ProzacStylingsPosted 12/8/2012 9:10:40 PM
Chat Noir posted...
serpentaurus posted...
Herr_Edgeworth posted...
serpentaurus posted...
Gongs have infinite durability and reflect projectiles.

Can they reflect beams? Because Wright has two of them.


nullify everything that cannot reflect

Storm Whirlwind goes through it for some reason.


The game handles "weird projectiles" the easy way.

Gamma Wave isn't one projectile moving forward. It's several moving Up from the ground. I imagine it may handle Whirlwind the same way, as several projectiles summoning hitboxes in a line, therefore not needing to move past it, etc.
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#66MedicalGamerPosted 12/8/2012 9:18:31 PM
I think Hsien Ko is the worst character in the game.

Sure she does have an air dash but that actually hurts her more than helps since you can't cancel it fast enough to block. Also the range is hardly good especially compare to someone like Dante.

Her main selling point, the gold assist, is commonly destroyed by the common Sentinel and other beam hypers. And there ate meter assists than that.

At last GR can boast having an effective way of killing assists while PW can play a decent to good keepaway plan with a good set if supers.
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#67serpentaurusPosted 12/8/2012 9:22:14 PM
StrykeBlayde posted...
Decent normals maybe, but they're more suited for rushdown which she just sucks at. And again, THC Trick with Steel Samurai at least lets him mimic Tenrai Ha loops..


See, this is why you all are talking **** about who is worse, cause you know nothing about HK. I play hsienko from time to time when fooling around people so i know some stuff:

Hsienko is a pseudo zoner with amazing poking, her H normals are used for zoning along with gongs and anki hous. She never has to go in, she can wait at fullscreen distance. Many characters cant even get close to her when she has momentum due to gongs spamming + assists
she has an instant overhead with sj. > airdash forward j.L, not that great, but in XF its extremely dangerous. The teleport mixup when using lockdown assists is also good. Wayyyyy better mixups than that 1 bar mixup PW has
Tenrai ha is overhead, so if you XF after a Tenrai ha and hit low its unblockable. If you use Tenrai ha then DHC to other character (like Doom sphere flame for example) you can hit low and get an unblockable
Even if hsienko hypers are not that great, she has access to them from start
When Hsienko is lucky she gets a hitconfirm from fullscreen distance; When Wright "gets lucky" he get a piece of worthless ****
If she has XF, every touch can turn into a TOD
gongs protect amazingly some assists like hidden missiles and are spammable
Hsienko forward mobility sucks, but her "lame" mobility is decent, she can repeat double sempu bu three times in the air and burn the time of an Lv3 XF character. So she can almost always get out of a bad situation, unlike PW who just have to block all that BS in the corner

finally, Hsienko assist in gold armor is a force to be reckoned, its a free get in assist on incoming characters for 0 risk (except when dealing with Sentinel of course). PW has a dog that come out like 1 year after you call hiim lol

Not saying that she doesnt suck, cause she does, when i pick her against competent players i usually lose the FT10s, but she has some stuff going for her, unlike PW who just stay there and die in the corner
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#68serpentaurusPosted 12/8/2012 9:27:16 PM
ProzacStylings posted...
serpentaurus posted...
Herr_Edgeworth posted...
He also has 3 hypers, PW only has 1 starting the round lol

It takes about one second to change into Trial Mode and use OitC, so it doesn't really matter.


one seconds is 60 frames for me, more than enough for Wolvie to strike two dive kicks

@merc, is PW mobility any better?, is GR mobility any better? at least HK has a decent backward wavedash and a "teleport". (*** teleport, but still better than anything PW has)


Yes. Much.

Hsien-ko's dash is complete ass. Even Arthur has a better dash(c wut i did thur, 6H ftw).

Her air dash is also completely and ridiculously unusably slow.

Her jump is also slow and floaty.

She's like an amputee, hobbling around the screen.

Because of these things, and her otherwise lackluster tools, she is the worst character in the game. Haggar can wavedash in and jump in with Pipe. She is a slower haggar, with no damage and average priority, with her only redeeming quality being an inconsistent assist(which also isn't as good as haggar's, hah).

Whatever her tools are, she cannot put herself in a position to use them unless the opponent plays poorly.

tl;dr If you're using Hsien-ko, you could change her out for Haggar right now, play the exact same way, and be instantly better.


go to training mode

1. try hk backward wavedash. compare to the other two characters backward wavedash
2. do sj > airdash forward > j.L. Then do it in XF Lv1/2/3
3. use double sempu bu three times in the air and test what characters can hit her out of it with normals
4. teleport wavedash forward sucks, but its not THAT bad. When HK is out she is also invincible

not saying that she is not bottom 5, but god, PW... that dude has 0 mobility
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#69jaganshi2Posted 12/8/2012 9:38:56 PM(edited)
StrykeBlayde posted...
jaganshi2 posted...
@Phentsy

GR and HK don't **** up team dynamics like PW does, you should take that on note. You can have so much skill with PW and make a great team around him but it really wouldn't matter unless you get 3 good evidence and a landed objection. With HK and GR on the other hand, they can be given an easier route through a well team building and good skill of the player, but with PW. NO.

I think PW is defended due to his popularity, he has one of the most dedicated fan bases in the game, and he is the most popular capcom character right now. Needless to say, there is just no logical way to reason PW being better than HK and GR because of that luck factor.

Last: If you've watched the streams right, PW would not have any good results if Chris G wouldn't revert to different teams. He reverted to a different team more times than he used his PW team and when ever he used PW, it was always his other two characters who did the most work.


Except at his best, he:
Outdamages
Outzones
Outkeepaways
Out-hypers 2/3 of the hypers(Penance Stare and Gold Armor are the only two worthwhile hypers of the other two)

Both Ghost Rider and Hsien-ko, and at his worst he still pulls of the same damage as Hsien-ko(he can even loop Maya, though it's through his THC trick) and has a better offensive hyper in Steel Samurai(she goes through everything) than both of them. At his absolute worst, he's 49th.


And the problem is, you need evidence to do so. It's still based on luck here and sometimes there are opponents who are that aggressive that there is just no time to do it, unless you connect a thc or bring him in through a TAC or a dead opponent and still, if you didn't get the right evidence then what a waste, you'll need to repeat or tag him out.

Out keepaways isn't as true either, i've faced PW's and GR's too with all the right necessities and a good GR with good support was a tougher keep away character. Hsien ko doesn't rely on luck, she still dishes good damage on a connected hit. Even though her dashes suck, PW's frame data is just that bad too. It's hard though to compare him and HK since PW can get buffed up but it's still based on luck.
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#70Lord_KagatoPosted 12/8/2012 9:41:47 PM(edited)
This pretty much sums up everything Butt-Hurt-Serp is trying to say:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qS7nqwGt4-I

And Hsien-Ko is winning/losing this poll by a whole 50%. I think it's safe to say that we have ourselves a finale.
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