Why does tourney seeding favor successful players?

#101Lord_Shadow_19Posted 5/5/2013 11:04:53 AM
Newuser posted...
Lord_Shadow_19 posted...
Newuser posted...
Lord_Shadow_19 posted...
All that happens in your situation is that the more pros are being sent to losers earlier in the tournament than later, grand finals will still ultimately be a match of 2 of the best players that showed up.


Top 3 gets paid out. All the strongest players can be in one half of a winners bracket and that can mean a player not on the level of those players get a ride to 3rd place. Is that fair?


If it's the luck of the draw, yeah, it's actually very fair because now we'd be talking about seeding being 100% random for every single entrant, that is the very definition of fair.


No I fail to see why it's fair. It now becomes a contest of luck rather than a contest of your skill. Of course the luck element in draws will always exist but if you think it's fair for players to have to rely more on their luck than their skills then something is very wrong with your understanding of competition.


Preferential treatment for some players is fair, but equal treatment for everyone isn't fair? Seriously, did you read what you just wrote?

This isn't a sport where EVERYONE is seeded based on stats, this is Marvel where only a handful of players are being seeded and everyone else is merely randomly placed. Maybe you think it's fair, but I certainly don't.
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#102polishenigmaPosted 5/5/2013 11:11:03 AM
MindSlicer posted...
I completely agree with TC

I have played multiple fighting games comptetively, amd nearly every tournament i have ever gone to I have been placed against a pro.

Perfect example here. I went to a random socal tourny for this.game about a month or so ago.

Guess who.my first opponent was? Richard nguyen first round (yippee so I get to go to losers right away)

next player I fight guess who it is?

BT clockwork

So to people that dont agree with prozac what do you have to say to me?

Im a perfect example of this very issue because I ALWAYS play a pro in my brackets I ALWAYS get seeded against "insert random pro here"


So how far do you deserve to go in a tournament? How would you feel if the next tournament you went to, because of seeding, you placed higher then both Richard and clock because they had to fight the pros while you got a cake walk up the ladder.
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#103SolidAbyssPosted 5/5/2013 11:31:09 AM
MindSlicer posted...
I completely agree with TC

I have played multiple fighting games comptetively, amd nearly every tournament i have ever gone to I have been placed against a pro.

Perfect example here. I went to a random socal tourny for this.game about a month or so ago.

Guess who.my first opponent was? Richard nguyen first round (yippee so I get to go to losers right away)

next player I fight guess who it is?

BT clockwork

So to people that dont agree with prozac what do you have to say to me?

Im a perfect example of this very issue because I ALWAYS play a pro in my brackets I ALWAYS get seeded against "insert random pro here"


See, this is what I kept talking about. You joined a tourney with known players. Pros are in your bracket, it happens. You just gotta man up and try to beat them. Don't be complaining about how pros are in your bracket. You would lose to them eventually anyways.

And if we are talking about seeding, you actually kind of disprove it in a sense so I'm not sure how you are agreeing. 2 pros in the same pool is not helping TC case lol. And it's not like they put pros in the same pools as you on purpose. They don't know you. Why would they consider, oh this random scrub we don't know is here, best we put pros in the same pools.

Stop being a crybaby and just level up.
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#104BlackShinobi13Posted 5/5/2013 12:01:09 PM
- Most people in this posting here have absolutely no idea what they are talking about
- There are too many completely wrong statements to even get into explaining why they are so incorrect
- Yes, I have created brackets for majors.
- A purely randomly generated fighting game tournament would fail due to the players hating it, not just the top players, ALL OF THE PLAYERS.


I'll just copy and paste this since I don't feel like retyping
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If a double elimination bracket of 16 people randomly comes like this (with the number representing that players rank among the group)
Top half - 9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16
Bottom half - 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,

Then the 9th best player in the tournament just got a free ride to winners final a.k.a 3rd place a.k.a prize money. This is the absolute extreme of this argument but as soon as the top 3 end up in the same part of the bracket you end up with a tournament where the best three players can't possibly finish in first, second and third, which throws your results into question.
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I know many of you have never seen it because no one does pure random anymore, but the next worst finals to watch after a staged finals is a finals between the best players from two sides of an imbalanced bracket. Where one person is a by far better than the other and everyone knows that the match will be a blowout before it begins because if the lower skilled player had faced any real challengers that person would have been eliminated long ago. The fact that that person got second place would mean nothing more than money, because no one would respect those results.
#105infiniteKIDDPosted 5/5/2013 12:12:27 PM
Let's have sixteen Pools of 16-man brackets.

Pool A - PR Rog, JWong, Neo, Fanatiq, FChamp, etc. (top tier players)
Pools B to O - Randoms
Pool P - ChrisG, RayRay, Yipes, Noel Brown, MarlinPie, etc. (top tier players)

Two players in each pool move on; winner of Winner's Finals and winner of Loser's Finals. This determines top 32 of the tournament.

Pool A - FChamp in winners and PR Rog in losers move on.
Pool P - ChrisG in winners and Yipes in losers move on.

Now we're in the top 32. Format is now top vs. bottom. Example:

Winner of Pool A vs. winner of Pool P
Winner of Pool B vs. winner of Pool O
Winner of Pool C vs. winner of Pool M
and so forth.

We only have 4 top tier players in top 32, and we'll be down to 3 by top 16, because loser of Pool A (PR Rog) plays loser of Pool P (Yipes) in the first round of the bracket.

Final Results
1. ChrisG
2. FChamp
3. PR Rog
4. Random
5. Random
5. Random
7. Random
7. Random

9. Random
9. Random
9. Random
9. Random
13. Random
13. Random
13. Random
13. Random

17. Random
17. Random
17. Random
17. Random
17. Random
17. Random
17. Random
17. Random

25. Yipes
25. Random
25. Random
25. Random
25. Random
25. Random
25. Random
25. Random

Your top 32 is full of randoms because all the top players knocked each other out in pools.

The top players have proved themselves to be top players, that's why they are seeded. Prove your skill by taking out a top player, not by getting to top 32 because all the top players took each other out in a different pool.
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#106ProzacStylingsPosted 5/5/2013 12:20:10 PM
polishenigma posted...
MindSlicer posted...
I completely agree with TC

I have played multiple fighting games comptetively, amd nearly every tournament i have ever gone to I have been placed against a pro.

Perfect example here. I went to a random socal tourny for this.game about a month or so ago.

Guess who.my first opponent was? Richard nguyen first round (yippee so I get to go to losers right away)

next player I fight guess who it is?

BT clockwork

So to people that dont agree with prozac what do you have to say to me?

Im a perfect example of this very issue because I ALWAYS play a pro in my brackets I ALWAYS get seeded against "insert random pro here"


So how far do you deserve to go in a tournament? How would you feel if the next tournament you went to, because of seeding, you placed higher then both Richard and clock because they had to fight the pros while you got a cake walk up the ladder.


You're attempting to cite bits and pieces of an entire statistical probability set.

Sometimes Clockwork will be rocked by 8 pros in the same bracket.

Sometimes Clockwork will be the guy with no pros in his bracket.

Probability wise, neither are likely; a division of talent is more probable(re: basic probability. The larger the sampling, the less inconsistent the results. The more times you flip a coin, the closer to 50% the results of one side will be).

No matter the outcome, the onset is 100% fair, as it does not give advantage to any particular player, and any bracket imbalances are evened out in the long term due to basic probability/statistics. The way it is now, seeded players are always advantaged.
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#107BlackShinobi13Posted 5/5/2013 12:39:23 PM
MindSlicer posted...
I completely agree with TC

I have played multiple fighting games comptetively, amd nearly every tournament i have ever gone to I have been placed against a pro.

Perfect example here. I went to a random socal tourny for this.game about a month or so ago.

Guess who.my first opponent was? Richard nguyen first round (yippee so I get to go to losers right away)

next player I fight guess who it is?

BT clockwork

So to people that dont agree with prozac what do you have to say to me?

Im a perfect example of this very issue because I ALWAYS play a pro in my brackets I ALWAYS get seeded against "insert random pro here"


There actually is a completely legit reason why so many new players have to play top players in there first match and its not because of skill based seeding; its because of regional seeding, which even most people still want to keep, even if top player seeding were gone. Top players tend to play together they usually play each other all the time. When you separate people who came together, like you and a friend you can to the tournament with you also have to separate PR Rog and F champ or NY EMP players. Regional seeding leaves the available spaces in a bracket next to top players because there are so many more players that they shouldn't have to face fight first round. SoCal like NY has a stacked player base of good players that play together and it effects brackets, but you can't call foul when six good players who came together get separated in a bracket when the same thing was done for you, there just happens to be more of them to take into consideration.


- Also If your first round losers match is Clockwork that means clockwork lost first round. Even beginning to state that a TO should make bracket that factor in who you may have to face in losers bracket.
#108KawasakininPosted 5/5/2013 12:43:15 PM
i'm against the current seeding. The only seeding should be by local region so you don't have to play your buddies when you travel.
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#109NoJobBobPosted 5/5/2013 12:46:28 PM
Top players deserve their favorable seeding. Putting them all in the same pools so that randoms get to advance is pure stupidity and not logical

This thread doesn't even make sense. It's the same logic as it is with sports. Do well and prove yourself, get favorable seeding
#110ProzacStylingsPosted 5/5/2013 12:49:19 PM
BlackShinobi13 posted...
- Most people in this posting here have absolutely no idea what they are talking about


Not from what I've seen.

- There are too many completely wrong statements to even get into explaining why they are so incorrect


AKA I'm going to call you wrong without providing any supporting evidence, coo'?

- Yes, I have created brackets for majors.


Texas Showdown 2012 I presume?
/lol

- A purely randomly generated fighting game tournament would fail due to the players hating it, not just the top players, ALL OF THE PLAYERS.


Nice opinion there. I disagree.


I'll just copy and paste this since I don't feel like retyping
---------
If a double elimination bracket of 16 people randomly comes like this (with the number representing that players rank among the group)
Top half - 9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16
Bottom half - 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,

Then the 9th best player in the tournament just got a free ride to winners final a.k.a 3rd place a.k.a prize money. This is the absolute extreme of this argument but as soon as the top 3 end up in the same part of the bracket you end up with a tournament where the best three players can't possibly finish in first, second and third, which throws your results into question.
---------

I know many of you have never seen it because no one does pure random anymore, but the next worst finals to watch after a staged finals is a finals between the best players from two sides of an imbalanced bracket. Where one person is a by far better than the other and everyone knows that the match will be a blowout before it begins because if the lower skilled player had faced any real challengers that person would have been eliminated long ago. The fact that that person got second place would mean nothing more than money, because no one would respect those results.


Statistical probability of the 8 best players in a 16 man tournament ending up in the same bracket: 0.000156. AKA, 00.0156%. AKA, if you hosted 6 thousand, four hundred and ten tournaments, this would happen in approximately 1 of them.

Don't worry. If it did happen, grand finals would still be #1 Player vs #2 Player.

Your seeding is bad, and unneccessary, and you should feel bad.

/successful debate thread is successful, btw
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