Why does tourney seeding favor successful players?

#111ProzacStylingsPosted 5/5/2013 12:58:03 PM
NoJobBob posted...
Top players deserve their favorable seeding. Putting them all in the same pools so that randoms get to advance is pure stupidity and not logical

This thread doesn't even make sense. It's the same logic as it is with sports. Do well and prove yourself, get favorable seeding


Sports are thoroughly ranked due to measurable statistics, and seeded top to bottom. First Seed against Bottom Seed, first round.

That does not happen in Marvel tournaments. There is no ranking system. Even if there was, it would not be compatible with unknown/new entrants. Marvel TOs operate on opinion, and randomly seed some players against pros while intentionally seeding some players away from them.

Sports does not do that. So, no. You're incorrect.
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#112polishenigmaPosted 5/5/2013 1:48:21 PM
ProzacStylings posted...
NoJobBob posted...
Top players deserve their favorable seeding. Putting them all in the same pools so that randoms get to advance is pure stupidity and not logical

This thread doesn't even make sense. It's the same logic as it is with sports. Do well and prove yourself, get favorable seeding


Sports are thoroughly ranked due to measurable statistics, and seeded top to bottom. First Seed against Bottom Seed, first round.

That does not happen in Marvel tournaments. There is no ranking system. Even if there was, it would not be compatible with unknown/new entrants. Marvel TOs operate on opinion, and randomly seed some players against pros while intentionally seeding some players away from them.

Sports does not do that. So, no. You're incorrect.


All (us) professional sports are ranked by a singular statistic: wins (unless there's a tie which they use other statistics to determine the tie-breaker like sos). You could, and I will, argue that this does happen in Marvel tournaments today (ranking by wins). Just because there isn't a public/open ranking system doesn't mean it doesn't exist in actuality. Hypothetically, if we did find a way to use measurable statistics, Chris G would still be getting the #1 seed, Rog would still be getting a high seed, Champ would still be getting a high seed, etc.

While there is no transparent ranking system, there is a de facto ranking system when it comes to seeding. This is one area where we disagree. If there was no ranking system, then it would be random as you are proposing. However, Chris G, Balrog, Champ, Wong, Yipes will consistently get higher seeds/rankings because of past performances AKA they've proven themselves. How many times have you seen Chris or Champ seeded low on the bracket? While opinion does play a role, for the most part the players who have the higher seeds deserve them.

On the mater of random players, when a truly random has to be seeded, he's seeded as a 0. All randoms are treated as 0s, that's why they are interchangeable when it comes to placing which random needs to play the seeds. You can have a pro seeded as #1 play a 0 seed and have the #13 play a 0 as they are interchangeable.

To summarize my 2 points-
1- There is a ranking system, otherwise we would observe top seeds being random.
2- There is a ranking system that works today. You seed all the pros, down from 1-16 or however many you need. After you seed the pros, you place all the randoms in as seed 0. If you rank them all as a 0, and randomly place them around, you are not showing bias as each is seeded the same.
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#113MK9_ProdigyPosted 5/5/2013 2:07:51 PM
I had a lot more valid point than that one sentence, Prozac.

Also, I never had the mentality of "**** randoms", I'm saying there's tons of reasons why they shouldn't be randomized with pro players.
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PSN&XBL: JDM6413 Playing: UMVC3:Zero/Doom/Vergil; Injustice: Lex Luthor, Ares, Green Lantern, Black Adam
#114ProzacStylingsPosted 5/5/2013 2:10:46 PM
polishenigma posted...
ProzacStylings posted...
NoJobBob posted...
Top players deserve their favorable seeding. Putting them all in the same pools so that randoms get to advance is pure stupidity and not logical

This thread doesn't even make sense. It's the same logic as it is with sports. Do well and prove yourself, get favorable seeding


Sports are thoroughly ranked due to measurable statistics, and seeded top to bottom. First Seed against Bottom Seed, first round.

That does not happen in Marvel tournaments. There is no ranking system. Even if there was, it would not be compatible with unknown/new entrants. Marvel TOs operate on opinion, and randomly seed some players against pros while intentionally seeding some players away from them.

Sports does not do that. So, no. You're incorrect.


All (us) professional sports are ranked by a singular statistic: wins (unless there's a tie which they use other statistics to determine the tie-breaker like sos). You could, and I will, argue that this does happen in Marvel tournaments today (ranking by wins). Just because there isn't a public/open ranking system doesn't mean it doesn't exist in actuality. Hypothetically, if we did find a way to use measurable statistics, Chris G would still be getting the #1 seed, Rog would still be getting a high seed, Champ would still be getting a high seed, etc.

While there is no transparent ranking system, there is a de facto ranking system when it comes to seeding. This is one area where we disagree. If there was no ranking system, then it would be random as you are proposing. However, Chris G, Balrog, Champ, Wong, Yipes will consistently get higher seeds/rankings because of past performances AKA they've proven themselves. How many times have you seen Chris or Champ seeded low on the bracket? While opinion does play a role, for the most part the players who have the higher seeds deserve them.

On the mater of random players, when a truly random has to be seeded, he's seeded as a 0. All randoms are treated as 0s, that's why they are interchangeable when it comes to placing which random needs to play the seeds. You can have a pro seeded as #1 play a 0 seed and have the #13 play a 0 as they are interchangeable.

To summarize my 2 points-
1- There is a ranking system, otherwise we would observe top seeds being random.
2- There is a ranking system that works today. You seed all the pros, down from 1-16 or however many you need. After you seed the pros, you place all the randoms in as seed 0. If you rank them all as a 0, and randomly place them around, you are not showing bias as each is seeded the same.


1) No, there is not. There is no national guideline that TOs follow, which would say if OMG Itz Andre or Frutsy belongs in the 12th seed spot. "Well, Chris is first, and then ahh, these guys are, you know, somewhere split up" is not a ranking system. It is not professional. It is not competitive.

2) Any ranking system would "work". I can say the brackets are ranked in alphabetical order, and it will "work". The way it is now, creates disadvantages for people that have not earned them. Unknown names are not "tied for the worst player ever". Seeding is designed to be done from top to bottom; top seed against bottom seed. Bottom seed is in the worst position, and has earned that bad position due to prior performance. Seeding top to bottom is not possible in Marvel tournaments. Seeding half-assed in a game with no seeding-rank system is sloppy as hell and TO-opinion-based.
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#115polishenigmaPosted 5/5/2013 2:37:31 PM
ProzacStylings posted...
polishenigma posted...
ProzacStylings posted...
NoJobBob posted...
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1) No, there is not. There is no national guideline that TOs follow, which would say if OMG Itz Andre or Frutsy belongs in the 12th seed spot. "Well, Chris is first, and then ahh, these guys are, you know, somewhere split up" is not a ranking system. It is not professional. It is not competitive.

2) Any ranking system would "work". I can say the brackets are ranked in alphabetical order, and it will "work". The way it is now, creates disadvantages for people that have not earned them. Unknown names are not "tied for the worst player ever". Seeding is designed to be done from top to bottom; top seed against bottom seed. Bottom seed is in the worst position, and has earned that bad position due to prior performance. Seeding top to bottom is not possible in Marvel tournaments. Seeding half-assed in a game with no seeding-rank system is sloppy as hell and TO-opinion-based.


1- There will never be a way to distinguish a person's rank after the top several seeds unless using tiers (which in practice occur). Chris is #1 since he's god tier, Champ/Yipes/Rog/Wong make up the next several seeds as high tiers, you have a bunch of mid tiers such as dimenion, clock, marlin and then you have the lower pro tiers such as cj, andre, fooblat and the rest.

Chris will get the 1 seed. Then you seed the high tiers 2-5 in whatever order, then 6-10 you seed the mid tiers, then 10-16 the low tiers, then 17-32 the randoms.

If you want to argue this being professional/competitive, it will be a dead end as you cannot have any proof proving using random seeding is more professional/competitive. By all means try, but there won't be any examples for you to use as the terms are not rigid and you cannot empirically say something is more professional or competitive.

2- You define that bottom seeds should be defined by past bad performance, and this is true when you also include: past bad performance or lack of prior performance. Seeding top to bottom is not possible, watch the next several majors and you will see this is the case. And as I stated earlier, while the TO use their opinion to seed players, there is a method to their madness. I don't remember a tournament where Andre was seeded above Chris or Fooblat above Champ.
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