Why does tourney seeding favor successful players?

#51Zang_BaPosted 5/4/2013 8:45:51 PM
I just wanted to say I completely agree with this. **** seeding. :3
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#52NickOfTimePosted 5/4/2013 8:46:59 PM
People should have incentive to get better in competitive games anyway. That's the whole point of wanting to compete. I don't mean to sound harsh, but you should keep your feelings at the front door instead of trying to make tournaments inconsistent just for random people who aren't that good.
#53BassVIIPosted 5/4/2013 8:55:04 PM
From: NoizyChild | #049
From: NickOfTime | #208
If you truly believe that you have a chance against top players whether you meet them in pools or you meet them in late brackets despite not being that good yourself, you're delusional. Making it past some people doesn't mean anything if you can't make it past top players, because either way they're going to eliminate you if you're not good enough. Seeding top players away from each other might even help mid-level players make it out of pools (in losers), since there's only ONE OF THEM to worry about in a given pool. It's not just for top players.

You're missing the entire point.

Nobody is going to go to their first tournament expecting to beat some pros.

However, nobody is going to go to their first tournament expecting to get completely destroyed in the first match, either.

Making it out of pools in a tournament gives people confidence and incentive to get better, and to come back to try again.

Getting flattened in the first match makes people not want to come back, especially after knowing that the brackets were intentionally rigged that way.

More people coming back and playing = more money for TOs = more enjoyable matches for stream monsters = more tournaments and community events = more notoriety.


Wouldn't people get destroyed in their first match anyway? Even in randomly generated brackets, someone is going to have to fight Chris G...

Also randoms will still make it out of pools, seeding normally guarantees one top player in the pool which makes losers open in almost every pool. whereas randomly generated brackets could put two pros in a pool, so they make it out, and then two randoms make it out of another pool... it's not that much of a difference.

It sounds like you're thinking about it from a player's perspective, not a spectator's. Most players are spectators, but not the other way around... and on Sunday, almost everyone is a spectator. TOs are going to cater to that.
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#54ProzacStylingsPosted 5/4/2013 8:56:04 PM
NickOfTime posted...
It's not just for top players.


Yes. It is.

The only people that get seeded are the top players. The mid-level players are not seeded apart from eachother. There is no consideration to make sure they make it out of pools, and there is no consideration to check if there is one ~pretty-good player in every pool with one ~pro-player so they can make it out in losers.

A mid-level player's best chances would be to delay playing pro players as long as possible, to give other players the maximum amount of chances to beat them. Purposely splitting up the pro players works AGAINST this, and gives the un-seeded players WORSE odds for the tournament. At every single bracket level.

Nobody is saying they should give random players advantageous positions.

They're saying they should give them EQUAL positions. The only way to ensure that, is to have it be random.
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#55Zanmato555Posted 5/4/2013 9:04:09 PM
This is why I find a hard time pushing myself to go to tournaments anymore. I thought brackets were supposed to be random, lol nope. Heres how brackets are made.

Bracket Maker: Okay, who joined... I'll put Chris G alll the way up here, i'll put J wong ALLLLLL THE WAY DOWN HERE, this way, they won't play till top 16. Now let me throw all the other pro's into their own brackets... NOW we randomize all the unknown players.

By the time the bracket is made, the finals can always be dictated, easily. You probably already know who top 8 is going to be, just by the positioning of the players. And the sad thing is, you'll never see one bracket stacked with all pro's, know why? Cause they are protected.

Evo is the last time i'll ever play in a tournament, and the only reason i'm going now is cause i'm going to have a blast with Solid, and my 2 other best friends IRL. This tradition needs to die, and it wasn't even this bad in LOL SMASH.
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#56Lord_Shadow_19Posted 5/4/2013 9:14:59 PM
Yeah, seeding should be completely random AND FAIR!

I can understand if some start up scene makes some accommodations if a known player shows up, but for established events such as Final Round, NCR, etc., no such biased seeding should take place, there juat isn't any need for it.

Use a computer program, write the names on pieces of paper and randomly draw them out of a hat, whatever, but make it fair. I do understand certain extenuating circumstances such as seeding foreign players away from better players, or seeding team memvers apart (although this brings us back to pros all being seeded away from each other again...).
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#57SolidAbyssPosted 5/4/2013 9:17:27 PM
Zanmato555 posted...
This is why I find a hard time pushing myself to go to tournaments anymore. I thought brackets were supposed to be random, lol nope. Heres how brackets are made.

Bracket Maker: Okay, who joined... I'll put Chris G alll the way up here, i'll put J wong ALLLLLL THE WAY DOWN HERE, this way, they won't play till top 16. Now let me throw all the other pro's into their own brackets... NOW we randomize all the unknown players.

By the time the bracket is made, the finals can always be dictated, easily. You probably already know who top 8 is going to be, just by the positioning of the players. And the sad thing is, you'll never see one bracket stacked with all pro's, know why? Cause they are protected.

Evo is the last time i'll ever play in a tournament, and the only reason i'm going now is cause i'm going to have a blast with Solid, and my 2 other best friends IRL. This tradition needs to die, and it wasn't even this bad in LOL SMASH.


Love you too big black cap
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#58DoctorEggmanPosted 5/4/2013 9:58:40 PM
ProzacIsBack posted...
Khadaj posted...
It's because it beneficial for both the pros and the viewers. If pros were placed against each other in pools, then they all knock each other out. And many matches in pool are not streamed. This not only hurts the players, but it also hurts the fans.

You see two randoms playing against each other and unless they are good, doesn't draw interest. Less people watch the stream, less potential customers view advertisements, and so on. Nobody wants to see a top 8 filled with randoms who had weak brackets. Whereas all the pros knocked each other.

So seeding actually helps the FGC. But many people fail to see this.


ITP, when two pros play eachother, they both get eliminated

So lets rig the brackets to give some players intentional advantages

/lol

//p.s., more people would come and give you money to enter tournaments if brackets were not rigged against them, therefore giving the TO more money and growing the scene


:/

Seeding doesn't stack the odds against anyone. What it does do, however, is ensure that the boring one-sided fights happen early on, in pools, and the bigger fights happen later on, like in the finals. Nobody wants to watch big name pro A fight random B in the semi-finals and demolish him just because the brackets were seeded poorly and most of the pros got in the same pools and knocked each other out early.

Seeding weeds out the lesser skilled players and makes the actual games that matter more exciting. And it doesn't give anyone an unfair advantage, the best player at the tourney will still win the tourney. How does seeding make you play worse? Are you easily rattled when you go up against a pro? Did you not expect getting into such a situation when you SIGNED UP?
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#59ZarchoniaPosted 5/4/2013 10:53:32 PM
Tournament seeding in every tourney favors successful players/teams because that's the fairest way to do it. You don't have the 2 or 3 best competitors eliminating each other in early rounds.

Look at the NCAA Basketball tournament its seeding favors the 4 best teams in the country. You know why? Because it would suck if we watched 4 of the best teams knock each other out leaving a 1 seed to play a 10 or a 12 seed that only had to play other weaker seeds to get to the same spot in the tourney.

With seeding the "difficulty" of reaching the finals is much more balanced than placing top seeds vs top seeds first. Yeah a last seed player might have an incredibly hard time beating a number 1 seeded player in the first round. Yet there's two things to take into account here. First if the worst ranked player can't beat the best ranked player early on then they don;t deserve to make it to the finals and be crowned winner. And second if the last seeded player defeats the first seeded player that should theoretically be their most difficult match/game.

TLDR; If you put the best players/teams in one pool/bracket and the worst in another. The worse players have a much easier path to the finals because they are only playing low ranked players whereas the best players are competing with other top players to reach the same point.

Seeding is extremely fair and you're blind if you don't see why.
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#60itsnotmyfaultPosted 5/4/2013 10:57:09 PM
The point of seeding is to help ensure that the best players are the ones that are placing the best. A person who would have beaten most other players there shouldn't be eliminated because all of the best players are put in the area of the same bracket. Whether it's "fun" to watch shouldn't matter at all, It's about making sure the right players make it the right distance. Ideally something like round robin would produce more accurate results, but as that's not feasible on a large scale, seeding is the sloppy solution.

It's the same way in real sports. You don't have Federer and Nadal play in the the first round because they're two of the best tennis players in the world and don't deserve to be eliminated early in the bracket. Granted tennis seeding is a far more rigid process than what's done for video games, but there is a point to it.