Why does tourney seeding favor successful players?

#71TheSteelPhoenixPosted 5/5/2013 12:17:17 AM
In theory in a double elimination tournament the only non-trivial placements are first and second place. This is assuming 100% play performance and match up consistency. If those two things are assumed, seeding only affects positions 3rd and down.

Why not just stop paying out in double elim for any position beneath 1st and 2nd, and then keep seeding if you want to try and maintain the pro-hype on top 8? That should remove the perceived unfairness.
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#72EVIL CAP AMERICAPosted 5/5/2013 1:08:35 AM(edited)
I remember back in the MvsC2 heyday my old OSMBV buddies went to a small convention in Kentucky [Technically in Cincinnati but meh]

They didnt spread us around in the brackets and an entire side of said bracket was filled with people that couldnt link 2 hits together in a VS game.I personally got a perfect in my fast round match and that never happens in MvsC2 then got eliminated in the next round by Blue Nu/GOC who eventually won taking on the weakest OSMBV guy Chaap who breezed his way through because he knew what a launcher was

Now before you say "Nobody remembers those guys stop the old man rant" ill get to my point

If you didnt spread the known pros out you risk getting an unbalanced tourny where the late rounds are all a wash because somebody won the bracket lottery.You end up having a tourny where the much hyped final round has a nobody vs a top tier player where the event is over before it even began

For the purpose of trying to entertain people watching with high quality fighting game play not divvying the best players up is a bad idea
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#73MK9_ProdigyPosted 5/5/2013 1:17:22 AM
NoizyChild posted...
From: itsnotmyfault | #302
Your placement at a tournament should be representative of your skill. So no, Federer should not come in last place because no seeding occured. He should come in somewhere higher up and seeding helps assure that that happens. I really don't know how to make that any more obvious to you. The better players should place better and not get bracket screwed.

if they're the better players, shouldn't they prove it by going through the brackets like everyone else? Why should they get to dictate how the tournament is going to end up just by showing up?


How many times do they have to prove it? That's why they are known players, and that's why they are seeded better than the randoms.



Better players should get better placings in brackets. Dunno why people are arguing this.

When you guys travel to each tournament let's say like Champ, and place in every tournament you think it's fair to be randomized to playing Chris G in the first round? Hell no, it's stupid.

I understand randoms have it worse than pros, that's quite obvious. But they are randoms.No one knows their skill levels. So I think it's fair that they are randomized.

I don't even understand why people are saying better players shouldn't get better placings in brackets...
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#74ProzacIsBack(Topic Creator)Posted 5/5/2013 1:27:54 AM
MK9_Prodigy posted...
I don't even understand why people are saying better players shouldn't get better placings in brackets...


Uh... because of this:

MK9_Prodigy posted...
I understand randoms have it worse than pros, that's quite obvious.


You're giving random players disadvantages on purpose.

The reward for winning a tournament is money. Not advantages against unmeasured opponents in future tournaments.
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Prozac is a dick.
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#75polishenigmaPosted 5/5/2013 1:41:14 AM
There is nothing wrong with seeding. It ensures that the top 8 or 16 are filled with those who mostly deserve it. Yes, upsets may occur but for the most part, players who are more skilled will end up there.

If there was no seeding, the player who theoretically would have gotten third, could be eliminated right away if he faces the top two players. As others have mentioned, it also ensures that top eight aren't a cake walk where the real finals occurred earlier in the night, with top players eliminating each other.

No seeds would also mess with the pot for top eight as well. A lot of top players who travel to other coasts for majors, the pot they get helps cover a portion of the cost it took to travel.

In the end, better known and skilled players get a preference. Don't like it? Become a top player and earn that preference.
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#76polishenigmaPosted 5/5/2013 1:44:25 AM
The reward for winning a tournament is money. Not advantages against unmeasured opponents in future tournaments.

By messing with seeds, you are directly messing with the money reward. Unless only top 2 get money. In which case lol goodbye to quite a few regulars.
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#77MK9_ProdigyPosted 5/5/2013 1:51:44 AM
ProzacIsBack posted...
MK9_Prodigy posted...
I don't even understand why people are saying better players shouldn't get better placings in brackets...


Uh... because of this:

MK9_Prodigy posted...
I understand randoms have it worse than pros, that's quite obvious.


You're giving random players disadvantages on purpose.

The reward for winning a tournament is money. Not advantages against unmeasured opponents in future tournaments.


Randoms have it worse than people who go to tournaments regularly and have proven that they are good enough to get top 8/16 consistently when paired against other people? Oh the horror.

Dude, why should randoms get a better chance at a good bracket? They haven't proven anything, and can screw with tournament results and views. There's no point in doing this except for the benefit of the randoms.
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#78ProzacIsBack(Topic Creator)Posted 5/5/2013 1:52:20 AM
polishenigma posted...
The reward for winning a tournament is money. Not advantages against unmeasured opponents in future tournaments.

By messing with seeds, you are directly messing with the money reward. Unless only top 2 get money. In which case lol goodbye to quite a few regulars.


No longer giving specific players an advantage and other players you've never heard of a disadvantage would, in fact, make those previously-favored players win slightly less often, and win slightly less money. Genius connection of the day.

That is not "messing with the money". That is no longer "messing with the money".

The reward for winning a tournament is money from that tournament entry.

It is not a better chance of winning money at the next tournament.

Rephrased with clarifications, for the somewhat simple.
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Prozac is a dick.
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#79Chat NoirPosted 5/5/2013 2:09:42 AM
EVIL CAP AMERICA posted...

If you didnt spread the known pros out you risk getting an unbalanced tourny where the late rounds are all a wash because somebody won the bracket lottery.You end up having a tourny where the much hyped final round has a nobody vs a top tier player where the event is over before it even began

For the purpose of trying to entertain people watching with high quality fighting game play not divvying the best players up is a bad idea


That.
It's mostly for entertainment purpose.
#80SolidAbyssPosted 5/5/2013 2:09:45 AM
Alom_o_mola posted...

I would like to hear SolidAbyss's + JDM thoughts on this since they paired up with somewhat hard hitters, Noel and Yoshi respectively and won.


I'm quite flattered :>

In my opinion, I think it's pretty morally wrong, but I understand the mindset. Tournament want to get the most views for top 8/16 to make the most money. If they lose out their best players, less money are to be made. So all the pros get to have it easy in pools.

BUT! I think the MINDSET of randoms having it such a hard time is scrub mentality. Yes, I think randoms are in a disadvantage. But you should not be crying if pros are in your bracket, it should motivate you to try even harder. If you join a major, expect to play the known players. If they are in your pools, well tough luck but you still gotta face them anyways. Sadly, it won't be on stream due to not wanting to stream so many randoms fighting the pros because it's considered free. But it's the tournament organizers lost for not streaming a known player getting into losers or out. The tournament organizer at NCR DID NOT believe I won my matches until I had to get WITNESS to prove it. It's that type of mentality that I believe is morally wrong, but it's understandable.

Now, do I wish they stop seeding? Absolutely. I just believe people who cry about being in pools with a pro player to be scrub mentality.

Sorry if I went a bit offtopic, but I've been a bit peeved because I've known a good amount of people crying that they were in pools with a known player and how it's so unfair.
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