Why does tourney seeding favor successful players?

#81ProzacIsBack(Topic Creator)Posted 5/5/2013 1:11:12 AM
MK9_Prodigy posted...
ProzacIsBack posted...
MK9_Prodigy posted...
I don't even understand why people are saying better players shouldn't get better placings in brackets...


Uh... because of this:

MK9_Prodigy posted...
I understand randoms have it worse than pros, that's quite obvious.


You're giving random players disadvantages on purpose.

The reward for winning a tournament is money. Not advantages against unmeasured opponents in future tournaments.


Randoms have it worse than people who go to tournaments regularly and have proven that they are good enough to get top 8/16 consistently when paired against other people? Oh the horror.

Dude, why should randoms get a better chance at a good bracket? They haven't proven anything, and can screw with tournament results and views. There's no point in doing this except for the benefit of the randoms.


1) Without randoms, you wouldn't have a tournament scene. Kicking randoms in the ass is the fast way to completely ruin the scene in the long term. "Who cares about randoms?" is the stupidest mentality you could have.

2) It would not favor randoms at all. It would be an equal playing field. It currently is not an equal playing field. Every competition should be an equal playing field(do I really need to point this out?), and in the event an equal playing field is not 100% possible(someone has to play Chris G first, someone gets to play Potmonster Jim first), the 'fairest' solution should be found.

If you can rank everyone involved in the tournament(Such as in pro sports/chess/etc), you can seed everyone, with justifications for who has to play Chris G first and who plays Potmonster Jim first, to shaft the least amount of people.

You cannot rank everyone in a Marvel tournament. Many entrants are entirely unknown, or unrecognized. In fact, you can't rank anyone in a Marvel tournament, because there certainly isn't any national point system in place to do so, which means it's now TO Opinion who gets advantages and who does not. Who's better, Wong or PR Rog? RayRay or Marlin? Kusoru or Infiltration, if he shows up for a Marvel tournament out of the blue?

Ergo, the only obviously fair method is randomized bracket drawing/seeding.

3) Nor would it screw with views. We've covered that already, too. People are already mad tired of chris g vs fgtv, and newcomers like apologyman / senor taxi make people mad hyper. Top 8 will always be the 8 people that made it past the other ~100, and in majors, that means there will always be talent vs. talent. Maybe, god forbid, the first day of a tournament will be worth watching as well, instead of the useless delay it is now. Without the team tournament, today's t2 pools were boring as ****. Yipes beating on people using crap like tron/arthur(love you rikir but you gotta drop them, realtalk<3) was the highlight of it.

tl ; dr:
- Unknown players don't deserve advantages or disadvantages. Either do former tournament winners.
- Without a ranking system, there is no way to seed without blatant opinion/favoritism/unwarranted advantages, even if there were no unknown players.
- Seeding does not make Marvel Majors more hype.
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#82MK9_ProdigyPosted 5/5/2013 1:30:39 AM
ProzacIsBack posted...
snip

1.) Ok, this is true. However this isn't kicking randoms to the curb. It's making THEM prove themselves like the pros have time and time again at each tournament. Me and Solid have done this.

2.) It favors weaker players by them getting somehow farther in a tournament because they lucked out and had no good players in their pool, meanwhile it hurts the good players because they are stuck with good players in their pool even if they all had the potential to get top 8. When in reality, the weaker players couldn't beat any of them, and don't deserve to get anywhere near top 8.

3.) Hype for all the wrong reasons. Not hype because "Wow what a great match, I've never seen someone beat the snot out of Chris G like that, and he's not even a known player!" It was hype because of the randomness of the player and the crowd being on his side. Not to mention everyone is sick of Chris G winning. If a fan favorite like Yipes got beat by Taxi with the same tactics not many (barring his home state) would have been rooting for him, and most would have been pissed that Yipes got beat like that.
And you just proved my point... yes pools suck, but those pool matches could theoretically be top 8 matches if someone like Rikir (Just using him as an example, I don't think he's bad by any means) got to top 8 because he had to play easy players. Then he gets bodied by Yipes in top 8. No one wants to watch that. At least we know top 8 will be good gameplay.

-Top players do deserve better placings. They deserve it because they are good and have a better chance to make it farther than randoms have proven they are capable of. 2 potential top 8 competitors should NEVER have to meet up in pools, that's completely stupid and like I said favors no one but randoms. I know, you need randoms but come on.

-Favoritism will always be present. Not saying it's fair, but it will be. There are justifications behind it though, like the ones I've previously stated.

-Seeding may or may not make a tournament more hype, but randomization sure as hell won't either.
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#83Zanmato555Posted 5/5/2013 1:39:32 AM
MK9_Prodigy posted...
ProzacIsBack posted...
snip

1.) Ok, this is true. However this isn't kicking randoms to the curb. It's making THEM prove themselves like the pros have time and time again at each tournament. Me and Solid have done this.

2.) It favors weaker players by them getting somehow farther in a tournament because they lucked out and had no good players in their pool, meanwhile it hurts the good players because they are stuck with good players in their pool even if they all had the potential to get top 8. When in reality, the weaker players couldn't beat any of them, and don't deserve to get anywhere near top 8.

3.) Hype for all the wrong reasons. Not hype because "Wow what a great match, I've never seen someone beat the snot out of Chris G like that, and he's not even a known player!" It was hype because of the randomness of the player and the crowd being on his side. Not to mention everyone is sick of Chris G winning. If a fan favorite like Yipes got beat by Taxi with the same tactics not many (barring his home state) would have been rooting for him, and most would have been pissed that Yipes got beat like that.
And you just proved my point... yes pools suck, but those pool matches could theoretically be top 8 matches if someone like Rikir (Just using him as an example, I don't think he's bad by any means) got to top 8 because he had to play easy players. Then he gets bodied by Yipes in top 8. No one wants to watch that. At least we know top 8 will be good gameplay.

-Top players do deserve better placings. They deserve it because they are good and have a better chance to make it farther than randoms have proven they are capable of. 2 potential top 8 competitors should NEVER have to meet up in pools, that's completely stupid and like I said favors no one but randoms. I know, you need randoms but come on.

-Favoritism will always be present. Not saying it's fair, but it will be. There are justifications behind it though, like the ones I've previously stated.

-Seeding may or may not make a tournament more hype, but randomization sure as hell won't either.


So now you're finally agreeing that rigged brackets exist. I can die happily now.
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#84TheSteelPhoenixPosted 5/5/2013 1:47:40 AM
MK9_Prodigy posted...
ProzacIsBack posted...
snip

1.) Ok, this is true. However this isn't kicking randoms to the curb. It's making THEM prove themselves like the pros have time and time again at each tournament. Me and Solid have done this.

2.) It favors weaker players by them getting somehow farther in a tournament because they lucked out and had no good players in their pool, meanwhile it hurts the good players because they are stuck with good players in their pool even if they all had the potential to get top 8. When in reality, the weaker players couldn't beat any of them, and don't deserve to get anywhere near top 8.

3.) Hype for all the wrong reasons. Not hype because "Wow what a great match, I've never seen someone beat the snot out of Chris G like that, and he's not even a known player!" It was hype because of the randomness of the player and the crowd being on his side. Not to mention everyone is sick of Chris G winning. If a fan favorite like Yipes got beat by Taxi with the same tactics not many (barring his home state) would have been rooting for him, and most would have been pissed that Yipes got beat like that.
And you just proved my point... yes pools suck, but those pool matches could theoretically be top 8 matches if someone like Rikir (Just using him as an example, I don't think he's bad by any means) got to top 8 because he had to play easy players. Then he gets bodied by Yipes in top 8. No one wants to watch that. At least we know top 8 will be good gameplay.

-Top players do deserve better placings. They deserve it because they are good and have a better chance to make it farther than randoms have proven they are capable of. 2 potential top 8 competitors should NEVER have to meet up in pools, that's completely stupid and like I said favors no one but randoms. I know, you need randoms but come on.

-Favoritism will always be present. Not saying it's fair, but it will be. There are justifications behind it though, like the ones I've previously stated.

-Seeding may or may not make a tournament more hype, but randomization sure as hell won't either.


/thread
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#85SolidAbyssPosted 5/5/2013 1:47:42 AM
Like JDM said, I do agree with him. I do think it's morally wrong to seed tournaments. But as organizers, I can see why they are worried to making top players make top 8. They need to make some form of money. And the randoms just need to suck it up and beat their pools.
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#86MK9_ProdigyPosted 5/5/2013 1:53:10 AM
SolidAbyss posted...
Like JDM said, I do agree with him. I do think it's morally wrong to seed tournaments. But as organizers, I can see why they are worried to making top players make top 8. They need to make some form of money. And the randoms just need to suck it up and beat their pools.


Right, When I seen who was in my pools, I made sure to watch how they played and what they got hit by. (This is a distinct disadvantage that known players suffer, btw. As a random, they don't know what I'm going to do, or what I tend to do in situations. I, however, do know what they will do. Hell, I watched a bunch of Moons/Flux matches and I'm sure that is what gave me the victory over moons as easily as I got it)
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#87SolidAbyssPosted 5/5/2013 2:08:17 AM
MK9_Prodigy posted...
SolidAbyss posted...
Like JDM said, I do agree with him. I do think it's morally wrong to seed tournaments. But as organizers, I can see why they are worried to making top players make top 8. They need to make some form of money. And the randoms just need to suck it up and beat their pools.


Right, When I seen who was in my pools, I made sure to watch how they played and what they got hit by. (This is a distinct disadvantage that known players suffer, btw. As a random, they don't know what I'm going to do, or what I tend to do in situations. I, however, do know what they will do. Hell, I watched a bunch of Moons/Flux matches and I'm sure that is what gave me the victory over moons as easily as I got it)


I'd say that's one of the huge benefit for randoms. We can analyze our opponent with the internet.
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#88Chat NoirPosted 5/5/2013 2:18:31 AM
ProzacIsBack posted...

3) Nor would it screw with views. We've covered that already, too. People are already mad tired of chris g vs fgtv, and newcomers like apologyman / senor taxi make people mad hyper. Top 8 will always be the 8 people that made it past the other ~100, and in majors, that means there will always be talent vs. talent. Maybe, god forbid, the first day of a tournament will be worth watching as well, instead of the useless delay it is now. Without the team tournament, today's t2 pools were boring as ****. Yipes beating on people using crap like tron/arthur(love you rikir but you gotta drop them, realtalk<3) was the highlight of it.


You're right about 1 and 2.
But 3? No.
Chris G is killing the hype, not tourney seeding. Go ahead and tell me that last year majors weren't hype. Plus, like Evil Cap said, it's not just about hype, it also about quality. As much as I liked Senor Taxi performance, if he made the same mistakes and won against Yipes in GF, people would have been like "Wtf?! This guy is a fraud!"
I'd rather have boring pools matches and good finals than the other way around.
It's not guaranteed that quality will be higher but it's still more likely.
#89ProzacStylingsPosted 5/5/2013 2:53:50 AM
SolidAbyss posted...
MK9_Prodigy posted...
SolidAbyss posted...
Like JDM said, I do agree with him. I do think it's morally wrong to seed tournaments. But as organizers, I can see why they are worried to making top players make top 8. They need to make some form of money. And the randoms just need to suck it up and beat their pools.


Right, When I seen who was in my pools, I made sure to watch how they played and what they got hit by. (This is a distinct disadvantage that known players suffer, btw. As a random, they don't know what I'm going to do, or what I tend to do in situations. I, however, do know what they will do. Hell, I watched a bunch of Moons/Flux matches and I'm sure that is what gave me the victory over moons as easily as I got it)


I'd say that's one of the huge benefit for randoms. We can analyze our opponent with the internet.


Are we doing a checklist of what randoms/seeded-pros have going for them, now?

How about randoms with videos of their play online, like me. Do I get seeded into a bunch of noobs now, because people can look up my crap while I'm waiting for my first match?

How about people who have been to more tournaments? That's something they've definitely got going for them. They're not gonna be rattled by distractions or varying play conditions as much. We definitely gotta seed them lower to make up for that advantage.

Dieminion didn't have dem glasses at T2, they totally should have seeded him higher for that total disadvantage.

The idea of seeding people to counteract varied, unmeasurable possible/perceived advantages is just as ridiculous as the idea of seeding people you know nothing about(Which is what TO's do when they put an unknown name into a low seed spot).

MK9_Prodigy posted...
-Favoritism will always be present. Not saying it's fair, but it will be.


Complete and total cop-out. Also blatantly incorrect.

Even if it was correct(It's not; many tournaments are done with properly evaluated seeding[impossible in a marvel tourney], and many marvel tourneys are done without seeding/TO-opinion-on-brackets at all), it's a black and white answer to a not black and white question. Some tournaments have more favoritism than others. Texas Showdown with Mihe had some much favoritism that it got lol'd off the books as a major tournament. You can control how much favoritism there is, by limiting personal opinion in the matter, and the most direct way to do that is to remove opinion-based-seeding(Which is the only kind of seeding that exists in Marvel).

Chat Noir posted...
I'd rather have boring pools matches and good finals than the other way around.
It's not guaranteed that quality will be higher but it's still more likely.


This is debatable. Personally, I disagree. I think it's statistically improbable that the finals of an unseeded major would have actually bad players.

IMO, the way it is now, Day 1 is guaranteed to be a slaughter of pros against randoms, and day 2 is generally the same small group playing eachother that people saw at the last major.

Without intentional seeds, Day 1 is almost guaranteed to have at least a couple interesting matches, Day 2 has a mix of the same small cadre, is guaranteed to end in Pro vs Pro due to double elimination format, and will have doses of new blood to keep it from being identical from the tournament prior.

Regardless, I'd rather the competitive standard/merit be kept, and the showbizness value of it follow. Points one and two came first for a reason, when I wrote them.
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#90TruthAndJusticePosted 5/5/2013 4:32:12 AM
I agree that seeing a random make it so high is a helluva lot more exciting than a Chris G vs Flocker moment.

That being said stacking pro's together in pools is a double edged sword and in no way does it guarantee a "Chris G vs Senor Taxi" moment. Let's say half of the pro's get knocked out early in pools and Chris G makes it out, I honestly believe there'd be more of a chance that we'd get the most boring Evo ever with Chris G top tiering his way through a bunch of mid-tier randoms, and potential Chris G killers like Rog, Wong, Yipes etc. may not be there to stop him. Yes, we had Senor Taxi but what are the chances of a random beating Chris G again? You can't just say "Senor Taxi" as if it wasn't an anomaly, because the amount of times Chris G has beaten a random vs a random beating Chris G is heavily in the former's favour.

And what's to say we won't see a Chris G vs Senor Taxi moment again if the top players are spread out thin in pools? What if the pro's aren't spread out and are stacked in pools and a Senor Taxi happens to be in a pool chock full of pro's?

I think this whole seeding business is something that really separates Evo from just your average Major; it also gives more of an incentive for several pro's to turn up to various majors to get their seeding points and by and large minimises large upsets. It's a tricky situation, because I'd love to see a bunch of awesome randoms (such as when Apology Man first made a mark for himself) tear up in Evo, plus this seeding business is heavily in America's favour and leaves top international players from Japan or Mexico at a disadvantage - that being said, unfortunately I think there's more of a chance of randoms absolutely sucking (and not being used to the pressure Evo gives) than randoms doing surprisingly awesome.