Should they nerf The Bee?

#131MenuWarsPosted 10/6/2012 11:59:44 AM
Unpure_Euphoria posted...
People also don't seem to consider the idea that it was a developmental oversight. That stuff happens. That's how PvP guns get to be unbalanced in the first place. They test, but not to the extent that millions of gamers can do.


This is very true, I remember the days when people didn't think they were entitled to easy games because of glitches of cheats, and even those that wanted cheats were only too happy to admit they'd needed the extra help.

I think I'm getting too old to listen to the entitled whines of people who refuse to tackle a challenge as it was intended to be.
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#132CloakedNubPosted 10/6/2012 11:59:45 AM
Stopthink posted...


Not playing online = not doing anything online

Glad we cleared that up.


He's not playing online. He's appearing online to friends. I don't see what's to misunderstand here.

pariah23 posted...


Anthony Burch is a writer who clearly isn't even aware what exactly the item does, so don't try to claim that he had any input on game mechanics, item design, or overall balance. It's painfully obvious that no one in charge of balance ever looked at the item after it was created, because there's no way any sane person would have let something like that slip out. Saying it was intended is as ridiculous as saying that Gearbox intended for there to be a text file on the PC version that could be edited to unlock 255 golden keys and all the pre-order/CE DLCs.


So you're trying to tell me the entire Gearbox development staff never communicated with one another. Right...

SeraphLance posted...
tl;dr

Reductio ad absurdum says that people who support keeping The Bee as is are full of ****, and I don't give a damn what you want if it affects my game experience negatively.


Same goes to people who want to nerf The Bee. So, yeah.
#133Cordawg411Posted 10/6/2012 12:01:20 PM
SeraphLance posted...
"Fairness in PvP" notwithstanding, a balanced game state is a healthy game state.

I paid for 30 bucks worth of DLC that, in the current state of the vanilla game, is most likely already obsoleted and not worth playing aside from the story. This is a loot-driven game, and DLC in a loot-driven game without any good expectations toward loot is already a failure. No, The Bee will not be obsoleted with an increased level cap, because it presents an obscenely high hurdle to overcome.

"Don't use it" isn't a valid excuse either. The Bee is laughably overpowered, and laughably overpowered items, by definition, are detrimental to loot-based games. From level 27 (when I got The Bee) to level 50 (when I replaced The Bee with a better Bee) I haven't once seen a superior shield to the one I was using. Can you honestly tell me that's okay? What if there was an equivalent for every equipment type? A weapon that's demonstrably superior to any weapon in the game (under any build configuration and gear combo) except a higher level version of the same weapon? A grenade mod? Class mod? Relic? Put that all together and you've turned a "bazillion guns" into "permutations of five items".

Reductio ad absurdum says that people who support keeping The Bee as is are full of ****, and I don't give a damn what you want if it affects my game experience negatively.


Not sure why "Don't use it" is not a valid argument...
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#134unknown_suspectPosted 10/6/2012 12:02:06 PM
Unpure_Euphoria posted...
People also don't seem to consider the idea that it was a developmental oversight. That stuff happens. That's how PvP guns get to be unbalanced in the first place. They test, but not to the extent that millions of gamers can do.


Considering that within the video in question, they said they're tweaking it specifically because of community feedback, I think they knew what they were doing with The Bee. I'd rather they just leave it alone, but if they change it then whatever.

Erupt50 posted...
I say yes they should simply because 90% of the players that have it didn't get it legitimately and you can all blame the dupers for that.


Completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
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#135SeraphLancePosted 10/6/2012 12:06:04 PM(edited)
Same goes to people who want to nerf The Bee. So, yeah.

Yeah, except I can pitch an objective reason why it needs to be nerfed, and you cannot reciprocate. So when it comes to one of us stepping on the other's toes, you're the one that gets screwed out of the deal.

EDIT: I've also seen mention that they should fix the duping before worrying about the Bee, but it's worth noting that this is kind of hard. I'm sure if you have a solution that is actually viable for fixing such a thing, Gearbox will be all ears.
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#136Unpure_EuphoriaPosted 10/6/2012 12:07:38 PM(edited)
From: unknown_suspect | Posted: 10/6/2012 3:02:06 PM | #134
Unpure_Euphoria posted...
People also don't seem to consider the idea that it was a developmental oversight. That stuff happens. That's how PvP guns get to be unbalanced in the first place. They test, but not to the extent that millions of gamers can do.


Considering that within the video in question, they said they're tweaking it specifically because of community feedback, I think they knew what they were doing with The Bee. I'd rather they just leave it alone, but if they change it then whatever.

Anthony Burch is a writer, not a programmer. He's a crowd favourite, a lot of players know who he is. Practically know one would have recognized the name if a programmer went on. He may also be the best public speaker at Gearbox.


I also love about the people complaining about the Bee tweak when we haven't even been told what it is yet.

My honest prediction?

I imagine it was a developmental oversight that the Bee applies to every shotgun pellet, and every bullet in a thrown Tediore gun. These are things that get coded, and never thought of. Checks and double checks, "ifs" and "thens" need to be coded that never got thought of. Programming a game is complex. If you forget a variable, forget a line of code, forget about one possibility, you'll get all sorts of unintended consequences. When I started coding when I was twelve or so, I made an RPG on my calculator in school. I made an RPG where you couldn't die, because I accidentally wrote a line of code that checked to see if your HP was equal to zero, NOT equal or less than zero. This is a very important difference. Just one tiny change like that results in a wildly different game experience.

I do not think The Bee was ever meant to apply to every shotgun pellet, or bullet in a thrown Tediore gun. I feel like that's the tweak we have coming, and nothing else.
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#137RavetownPosted 10/6/2012 12:04:55 PM
Just to clarify, while they just talked about the bee, I'm pretty sure it's only broken badly with fast shotguns, but I may be wrong.
#138SeraphLancePosted 10/6/2012 12:08:37 PM
Ravetown posted...
Just to clarify, while they just talked about the bee, I'm pretty sure it's only broken badly with fast shotguns, but I may be wrong.


It's probably the best orange shield in the game even without shotguns (or even automatics), but there's a pretty large divide between "best" and "hilariously overpowered". With a shotgun-only adjustment, It'd still be the holy grail of shields, but I think most people are more okay with that.
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#139CloakedNubPosted 10/6/2012 12:09:55 PM
Unpure_Euphoria posted...
I also love about the people complaining about the Bee tweak when we haven't even been told what it is yet.

My honest prediction?

I imagine it was a developmental oversight that the Bee applies to every shotgun pellet, and every bullet in a thrown Tediore gun. These are things that get coded, and never thought of.

I do not think The Bee was ever meant to apply to every shotgun pellet, or bullet in a thrown Tediore gun. I feel like that's the tweak we have coming, and nothing else.


That's understandable, but what's not understandable is the very vocal minority around here (and the official forums). That are calling for it's nerf simply because they feel like it's too overpowered. There's far too many pro-nerfers who are masquerading behind the thinly veiled disguise of it being for "game balance."

I really don't care much either way. If they nerf it into oblivion, I'll reject the patch and play offline. I'm only ever in a co-op game to help someone who's asked, anyway. Everything else I do split-screen and solo. Or if they keep it largely usable, then I won't.
#140unknown_suspectPosted 10/6/2012 12:11:42 PM
Unpure_Euphoria posted...
From: unknown_suspect | Posted: 10/6/2012 3:02:06 PM | #134
Unpure_Euphoria posted...
People also don't seem to consider the idea that it was a developmental oversight. That stuff happens. That's how PvP guns get to be unbalanced in the first place. They test, but not to the extent that millions of gamers can do.


Considering that within the video in question, they said they're tweaking it specifically because of community feedback, I think they knew what they were doing with The Bee. I'd rather they just leave it alone, but if they change it then whatever.

Anthony Burch is a writer, not a programmer. He's a crowd favourite, a lot of players know who he is. Practically know one would have recognized the name if a programmer went on. He may also be the best public speaker at Gearbox.


I also love about the people complaining about the Bee tweak when we haven't even been told what it is yet.

My honest prediction?

I imagine it was a developmental oversight that the Bee applies to every shotgun pellet, and every bullet in a thrown Tediore gun. These are things that get coded, and never thought of. Checks and double checks, "ifs" and "thens" need to be coded that never got thought of. Programming a game is complex. If you forget a variable, forget a line of code, forget about one possibility, you'll get all sorts of unintended consequences. When I started coding when I was twelve or so, I made an RPG on my calculator in school. I made an RPG where you couldn't die, because I accidentally wrote a line of code that checked to see if your HP was equal to zero, NOT equal or less than zero. This is a very important difference. Just one tiny change like that results in a wildly different game experience.

I do not think The Bee was ever meant to apply to every shotgun pellet, or bullet in a thrown Tediore gun. I feel like that's the tweak we have coming, and nothing else.


So this is what you were getting at more specifically. I personally wouldn't really mind this change too much.
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