About the Bee nerf...

#71blubagaPosted 11/13/2012 8:05:35 PM
MHNetio posted...
I can only see this benefiting the community at large.

The reason for this is there are a few games, such as Dragon's Dogma, in which there is a "limited time" boss which the community fights, but only those who kill it (and those who log in within twenty minutes of it dying to kill it in a weakened state) get it's loot. Loot which is unique to killing it online.

What this has done is create a very altruistic community, with those who have been more fortunate than others sharing their wealth. Also for contrast, Dragon's Dogma has no level cap on their weapons. You're free to use it when you get it- the only requirements being if you're the correct class for usage or not. Borderlands 2 has level requirements, meaning a new person can not be using game-breaking equipment within seconds of getting it.

It's entirely possible to dupe items, and being as this is a non-competitive game and also given how hard it's now going to be to drop good items, I fail to understand how this is going to be a bad thing.

One of the issues that gets raised is that it will affect players of lower level and/ or with lesser equipment, impacting the enjoyment of the game for the host and/ or other players of similarly lower comparative strength playing the host's game too. If someone is joining your game and it is evident that they aren't going to play in a way the host likes, then the host can kick them. This goes to more than the use of good equipment- this applies to sticking with the group, going at the pace the host is playing, ninja looting, revivals, the list really goes on. There is so much terms of playstyle and gaming etiquette that players need to abide by and the rules vary from host to host. Ultimately, it's dealer's choice; the host decides who stays and goes.

Now what we see from this is anti-duping mentalities saying that now the dupers have free reign of the trading market. Clearly these groups can consolidate far more items of greater rarity and flood the community with them, sinking it's value. Yes that is true. However it is quite folly to believe that non-dupers are in direct competition with dupers. This is because there is no effectual market in the game and you never really know who you're dealing with on the other end of the bargaining table. The results are that a trade is made- an exchange of items. What happens to the items after that is of no concern nor business of the original owner after the trade is made. And since the use of the equipment comes back to being on the whims of the host, then it's easy to see how this all becomes full circle and really a non-issue.

The limited time bosses improve the game somewhat because of this. Freedom of loot has never harmed other games (it has, in fact, improved games with active competitive communities, such as Dark Souls, as it evens the playing field). I think what is being aimed for here by Rockstar is a way to force the player(s) to enjoy the boss fights, rather than view them as a more grandiose road-bump albeit minor annoyance to be dealt with before the invariable explosion of loot fountains.


You had my support until you said "loot fountains" the last time Terra died I was in a room with 4 people and he dropped the 1 orange mod he always drops, 2 purples, 4 blues, and 20+ whites....4 people in the room and he droped WHITES, we even struggled a little because we did it how you would say "legit".

Not a single one of these changes would have phased me in the slightest had they also substantively increased drop rates. I was under the impression that I was buying an FPS-RPG hybrid, NOT an FPS-MMO hybrid.
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#72MHNetioPosted 11/13/2012 8:13:21 PM
Of course, I understand that. It did used to be loot fountains- that is what I was going for. It's not like that now, and that's the rebalancing I think Rockstar is going for. It's now about the fight rather than the loot. It's a refocusing I think was necessary- Rockstar has always been about "equal opportunity for shooting bandits in the face with rockets"; they must have felt players had forgotten this is what Borderlands was about and sought to redirect the player's attention to that.

Of course it's speculation on my part, but I think they're trying to hold onto the base values of what Borderlands is and make it more community-friendly. The monsters still bleed items, but it's about how outlandishly they die rather than what colour they bleed.
#73VergilsNotBrokePosted 11/13/2012 8:45:31 PM
MHNetio posted...
Of course, I understand that. It did used to be loot fountains- that is what I was going for. It's not like that now, and that's the rebalancing I think Rockstar is going for. It's now about the fight rather than the loot. It's a refocusing I think was necessary- Rockstar has always been about "equal opportunity for shooting bandits in the face with rockets"; they must have felt players had forgotten this is what Borderlands was about and sought to redirect the player's attention to that.

Of course it's speculation on my part, but I think they're trying to hold onto the base values of what Borderlands is and make it more community-friendly. The monsters still bleed items, but it's about how outlandishly they die rather than what colour they bleed.


Pretty sure you mean Gearbox...

OT: The major problem I see here is that TVHM or 2.5 are hard enough for people who don't get online. I never owned a CC or a Bee, and getting through TVHM was like pulling teeth. I died at least 125 times because of how crappy my weapons were.

At least rebalance some of the bosses for single player so that an average character (not a character that had 100 oranges dropped at their feet) can complete them. Not talking about Terra or Hyperius. More talking about BNK-3R and Saturn.

Grinding is bad enough as it is. When it gets worse, people will just use the 65445433523x20 shotguns from BL1 again, and those are hardly more fun.
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#74PokeLord473Posted 11/13/2012 9:06:26 PM
darkayanami posted...
Fatman9845 posted...
I had to bust my backside to get my bee. If gearbox just decides to ruin it because their egos got bruised because people can beat their shoddy game, I will never give gearbox another penny of my money.


I don't know about all that. It isn't as if the games value and fun-factor are solely based on having The bee.


With the stupid drop rates in this game, it needed the Bee/CC & Bee/Tediore to make farming somewhat more tolerable. Now they have taken both of those away and increased the health of Terra, how f***ing long do you think it will take to get the damn Hide of Terra now? More time than anybody will care to spend, that's what. I've gone through both Normal and TVHM and just had the legendary collecting left to keep me interested in this game. Now that's out the window, too. I bought Scarlett, but never finished it after hearing about the lame loot and now I will be skipping all the future DLC. Good job, Gearbox.
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#75Rolling_StonedPosted 11/13/2012 9:35:22 PM
You don't own the game just because you bought it. You purchased a license to play the game that they can change at any time. I swear, nobody ever reads the legal info.

Get over it. Or play offline solo.
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#76Sharpshooter105Posted 11/13/2012 9:45:42 PM
XCrimsonSamurai posted...
Sounds like the amp damage bonus will be around 40k after nerf, which is still pretty good. The main problem with the patch is that it's going to prevent the amp damage from affecting all the pellets of a shotgun, so yes, goodbye CC+Bee.

The Bee will likely still be good when paired with high ROF weapons.


So Maggie+Bee now?
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#77liinnPosted 11/13/2012 10:07:07 PM
Maggie + Bee will be gone too. Which is my favorite Bee set up.

If I'm not wrong, Maggie fires 10 shots even though you see only two bullets less per shot. So, the new amp will be 5X or 10X less powerful ( depending on how they define it ). It will still be very powerful with Maggie, just that you can't take down enemies 5 levels higher by firing two shots from Maggie.
#78MHNetioPosted 11/13/2012 10:25:47 PM
VergilsNotBroke posted...
MHNetio posted...
Of course, I understand that. It did used to be loot fountains- that is what I was going for. It's not like that now, and that's the rebalancing I think Rockstar is going for. It's now about the fight rather than the loot. It's a refocusing I think was necessary- Rockstar has always been about "equal opportunity for shooting bandits in the face with rockets"; they must have felt players had forgotten this is what Borderlands was about and sought to redirect the player's attention to that.

Of course it's speculation on my part, but I think they're trying to hold onto the base values of what Borderlands is and make it more community-friendly. The monsters still bleed items, but it's about how outlandishly they die rather than what colour they bleed.


Pretty sure you mean Gearbox...

OT: The major problem I see here is that TVHM or 2.5 are hard enough for people who don't get online. I never owned a CC or a Bee, and getting through TVHM was like pulling teeth. I died at least 125 times because of how crappy my weapons were.

At least rebalance some of the bosses for single player so that an average character (not a character that had 100 oranges dropped at their feet) can complete them. Not talking about Terra or Hyperius. More talking about BNK-3R and Saturn.

Grinding is bad enough as it is. When it gets worse, people will just use the 65445433523x20 shotguns from BL1 again, and those are hardly more fun.


God, what a derp moment. Yes, Gearbox. I don't know why I was thinking Rockstar. I don't own any Grand Theft Auto or Max Payne game.

Thanks for picking me up on that.
#79kaonousPosted 11/13/2012 11:11:51 PM
everyone is using the bee and conference call combo. without this combo, people might be forced to get more creative. and people might actually start to come up with their own strategies. they might not all use the same weapon and shield. maybe this will give players more variety
#80MadDewgPosted 11/13/2012 11:30:16 PM
Dredj posted...
Relax pals, I play BL2 on PC and the Bee is just fine. My Bee got an increase of 2 seconds on the recharge time and lost 10 damage on it's Amp, it was 49k now it's 39k, but honestly my Veruc rifle is still killing everything in 2 bursts.

Conference Call on the other hand is now a worthless weapon, and Baby Maker reload boss farming is no longer valid, I did 8+ reload throws on Hyperious and did about 5% of his HP.


I like how everyone in this topic ignored this guy I quoted, lmao. Like the only PC player to actually chime in to let everyone know that is actually isn't going to be that bad (well....besides the conference call and hyperious thing).
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