New melee Zero ideas
Ok, so TC, after reading your post and giving it some thought, it looks like you're describing two builds.
One uses Rubi and Thumper and no Grim,
One which uses Manly Man and Grim and some combination of Rapier/Rubi/Evie.
Now I more or less understand why Rubi and Thumper and no Grim is a very different take than Law/Order.
However the Manly Man + Grim and brothers three seems to be a more shaky version of Law+Order, at least regarding health. So, are you making up for the health regen in the form of Rubi+grenade?
Also, when you're using Rapier+Grim, are you also using Ambush and backstab for what seems like a total of +305% melee damage? I'm trying to figure out how high the melee bonuses have to be to one-shot mobs.
You're under the wrong impression that TC's trying to find a convoluted solution to compensate, for better survival. No. He's trying to push speed to the extreme. To gain fastest movement with fastest cooldown. It's not a survival issue of Zero, it's a curiosity issue, of TC. His previous Thumper+Rubi build, should already be solid.
This is what I read in his build. Before entering MMF, switch to Rapier for damage. More kills in MMF leads to shorter cooldown. Stacking more and more kills also nets you speed. During cooldown, use Evie, which speeds up cooldown even more. When in really low health and needs instant recovery, switch to Rubi.
His skill points in melee is not there to compensate, it is to guarantee one-strike-kill in MMF, since his build switched out from Thumper. And his goal, for excessive +melee, is not to compensate ( since Rupier does more damage than anything else ). It is to get more kills in MMF before being knocked out of Deception, which nets you faster cooldown when you exit Deception.
He's trying to squeeze every nano second he could out of his build. If you see that, you'll see what he is trying to do.
It's been a LOT of trial and error.
Yeah, and I bet it's been a LOT of fun.
For anyone watching this thread, I'm still working on it. I got back to 2.5 tonight so i was able to actually try a few tweaks. I was stringing 5-6 kills together no problem with 2 people. When a 3rd joined I hit a bit of a wall.
I'm finally done with this build. Thanks to Liinn for the help. I will break down the skills as it relates to my build. There might be some insight in here as well. Some of these skills may work extremely well in other builds.
-Iron Hand - Increased melee/health. No brainer.
-Grim - Every kill restores shields. Shortens cool down after Deception ends. Doesn't work well with Roid shields. Great for my build.
-F0llowthr0ough: Increased melee/gun damage. Helps boost melee after the first kill in Deception. Increased movement speed is the big bonus here. I consider this one of Zero's best skills.
-Execute: Lunge into an enemy to kill it. Use the lunge to close the gap even if you don't hit the enemy. Also a no brainer.
-Like the wind: Abilities that add to both melee/gun damage will help after the first kill and with the Little Evie.
-Rising Shot: I tried many builds with and w/o RS. The % are relativley small for taking up 5 points. In testing I found it made a significant impact in the effectiveness of the Evie. I consider this one of Zero's best skills.
-Backstab/Ambush: Huge melee bonuses. A must have.
-Fast Hands: Build dependent. I am constantly changing guns. Reload speed helps w/ Evie.
-Death Mark: At first I didn't like this ability. I plan to kill every target I melee for Many Must Fall. Then I found how helpful it was to get the kill with the Evie. And you can't always kill Super Badasses. Plus it's only 1 point.
-Headshot: Critical hits are somewhat situational when meleeing. But they do happen sometimes. It's more here for the Evie, and I'm getting +5 from the class mod.
A few notes on some abilities:
-Unforseen: When the clone explodes and kills something, it does NOT activate Grim. Furthermore, when I kill an enemy, I put a new clone in that spot. If there are any enemies nearby, I plan to quickly kill them with melee attacks. Finally, I don't want the exploding clone killing something I would rather kill with the Little Evie.
-C0unterstrike: When you get hit, it sometimes activates the ability. It gives you about 6 seconds to get a HUGE boost to your next melee attack. Problem is it's inconsistent. Sometimes my shield would take one shot and the icon would pop and I would be able to get the bonus. Other times my shield would drain and I wouldn't get the bonus until I started taking hits to my life. Sometimes, I would go all the way to FFYL with no bonus.
-Fearless: I thought it might help the Evie, but Grim is always refilling your shield, so it has bad synergy there. And Zero can only take 2-3 hits once the shields are gone. Didn't find it helpful.
The build itself:
Shield: Manly Man Shield
Relic: 35% cool down
Mod: Legendary class mod
Grenade: I don't use them. Go with the best you have.
Hot key up: Best launcher you have.
Left: Captain's Rapier
Down: Moxxi's Rubi
Right: Little Evie
Fast Hands: 5
Rising Shot: 5
Death Mark: 1
Ir0n Hand: 5
Like the Wind: 5
Many Must Fall: 1
How to Play:
When you enter Deception, look at your health. If it's not full, press down to the switch to the Rubi. Always go for the Backstab bonus whenever possible. After the first kill (or if you life is full when you enter Deception), press left to switch to the Rapier. Kill as many enemies as you can. When Deception ends, press right to switch to the Little Evie and start shooting.
The bar fight scaled for 2 people was the most fun I've had playing this game. I was consistently getting 4+ kills with MMF and my cooldown was averaging around 2-3 seconds.
I jumped into a game with randoms at the bar fight this morning. 2 players were at the vending machines in their menu, so there was 2 of us in with the enemies. I had some good stretches where I wasn't getting put into FFYL for 3-4 Deceptions. I also had a few times where I had to use the launcher to get second winds. It happens. I'm not going to come on here and pretend the build is invincible. I do think it is significantly better than Thumper builds though. Try it out, let me know!
I still have work to do with my attempts to turn Maya into a whirlwind of melee insanity, but this is the next thing I am checking out. I am addicted to speed buffs now anyways, and I imagine running the shieldless siren around punching stuff has been good practice. Kudos on the extremely well thought out build.
wait, what? psn: jeraste717
Thanks, it was a lot of trial and error. I don't have Maya at 50, but the guy I usually play with does. I'm trying to get him to setup the melee build for comparison purposes and just to see it in action. Maybe we can play some time for comparison purposes.
I am always down for some mayhem, and if your friend wants to try the meleesiren I am down to help get him setup as well, ill hit you up on psn.
wait, what? psn: jeraste717
Believe it or not, I'm still not satisfied. My build above works great for somewhere like the Beatdown/bar fight. Kill 5 enemies, wait 3 seconds, kill another 5 enemies. Spend a good 40-45 seconds/minute in Deception. Problem is in more open places like the repeatable arena in Torque, it's hard to backstab. I end up executing into the front of the enemy and not killing them.
My problem with Love Thumper is I always felt that when you get a second wind, you have 3/4 shield. Now if I immediately go into Deception and attack something, I don't get the roid bonus. Then I was thinking of going to playthrough 1 to find a low level grenade with a fuse of 0 that I could throw at my feet and drain my shields. I've had that in the back of mind until I realized something else yesterday. You can throw the grenade while in Deception, after the second wind before you attack. Back to the drawing board.
If people get annoyed with these posts, just say so and I'll stop bumping.